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1 John 1:9 - Forever Forgiven

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Chet, Aug 21, 2001.

  1. TREK

    TREK Guest

    While I totally agree that all our sins are forgiven at the moment of conversion, I also believe that we still need to ask forgiveness to keep the fellowship with God what it should be. He gives us the perfect example of how it works by being called our heavenly Father. Once we are His child, we always will be, just as our children are always ours, no matter what they do, or how bad they might hurt us, or go against our rules. It is the same with God. But just like our children need to ask forgiveness to restore the fellowship with us, so we must do with God. But either way, God's grace is awesome!!
     
  2. Raulf7

    Raulf7 New Member

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    1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

    This verse does not say we have to ask forgiveness. Its says we have to confess or sight those sins to God.

    When you first got saved all your sins were forgiven, past, present and future. However sins you do commit now take you out of fellowship with God and you need to admit them to God.

    All sins were judged at the cross. You dont need to ask God to judge them again.

    Simply say "Heavenly Father today I told a lie (or .......) and I thankyou that you sent Jesus to die for it, Amen"

    Thats it. Asking for forgiveness or doing penants or feeling sorry for your sins or beating yourself up over them, will not change Gods Grace. These sins were judged already. The righteousness of God is free to pardon you because of the cross.

    Remember all your sins, past, present and future were judged at the cross and forgiven at the point of salvation. If you never confess current sins you will still be saved but it just means you will be out of fellowship with God and subject to Divine discipline.
     
  3. Chet

    Chet New Member

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    Trek and Ralf7, I enjoyed your post thanks for posting.

    1 John 1:5-10
    This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light
    and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in
    darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
    NKJV

    FELLOWSHIP: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>NT:2842
    koinonia (koy-nohn-ee'-ah); from NT:2844; partnership, i.e. (literally) participation, or (social) intercourse, or (pecuniary) benefaction: KJV - (to) communicate (-ation),
    communion, (contri-) distribution, fellowship.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Everywhere 2842 appears: Acts 2:42 - Rom 15:26 - 1 Cor 1:9 - 10:16 - 2 Cor 6:14 - 8:4 - 9:13 -13:14 - Gal 2:9 - Eph 3:9 - Phil 1:5 - 2:1 - 3:10 - Philem 6 - Heb 13:16 - 1 John 1:3 - 1:6 - 1:7

    Where does it say we lose our 2842?

    With love,

    Chet
     
  4. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

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    Ah, but Chet, our fellowship is tied in this passage to our walk, not our salvation! When we "walk," we either walk with God or without Him. Walking without Him damages our fellowship, and for that we must confess our sins as the verses in question indicate. If fellowship refers to salvation, then we can save one another ("have fellowship with one another"). Relationship deals with salvation: Father--children of God. Those are relationships. Fellowship by definition and application deals with interaction (walk). So the verses in question as well as the Lord's prayer are proof positive that we should regularly confess our sins before God!
     
  5. Chet

    Chet New Member

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    Wellsjs thanks for responding,

    1 John 1:5-6
    This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.
    NKJV

    John 8:12
    Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me
    shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life."
    NKJV

    John 14:20
    At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in
    you
    .
    NKJV

    The above scripture should speak for themselves.

    Again. We confess our sins at the time of Salvation, he has forgiven them all. Just as 1 John 1:9 promises. Now, tell me where it says we can lose our fellowship?

    Wellsjs my brother, looks like we will need to dive right into Matthew 6. But we will
    need to start a whole new thread because it will surley lead into a whole lot of other
    discussions. I will try to start it this week, next few days may be busy. I will probably call it the Sermon on the Mount.

    One side note = your doing a wonderful job in the evolution forum. God Bless

    Chet
     
  6. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

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    Chet good brother,

    I agree, in God there is no darkness at all.

    "He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness" - but believers don't always follow Christ. Can we be following Christ and sin? Can we sin and be following Christ? Absolutely not! But we can and do walk in darkness when we sin, and for this we need repentance to restore our fellowship with God. You did not address my reasoning in my last post on the issue of fellowship vs. relationship. Would also like other's input on this.

    Not sure how you intend John 14:20 to make a case here. Yes, we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but that indwelling doesn't keep us from sinning. If it does, then I'm not saved!

    Thanks for the compliment. Encouragement helps. God bless!
     
  7. Chet

    Chet New Member

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    Its 2:00 am here. I woke up thinking about our discussion. So I couldn’t sleep.

    “Follow me” was a phrase that is used by our Lord to call people unto Himself. Type in
    these words on your PC and compare the phrase with each other. So I believe that once we are called to follow Him, we leave our former life realizing our sin and are saved. This is a salvation call. Now agree with you we do sin, but I can only hope that I can articulate what I feel the Scripture teaches. Yes we sin. Yes we as Christians become like Peter, and warm ourselves by the fire. Yes we as disciples are detoured. But those
    things make us feel like our fellowship or relationship with God has been put on pause. Our heart then condemns us (John 3:20) and Satan uses such things to even at times makes us feel unworthy to talk to God. It has been drilled into our heads and it is traditional thinking to use 1 John 1:9 to again make us feel better about our relationship to God if we get to do something. Grace then becomes no grace. Grace = unmerited favor. Hebrews teaches us to rest.

    Heb 4:3
    For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
    KJV

    My point of being in Christ is significant because we are baptized by the Sprit into Christ Jesus and being in Him there is no darkness. Everything is brought to light. We won’t ever think that we don’t sin. There may be a sin that I am unaware of, but as I study the “lamp that is unto my feet” this “mirror” then that sin will be brought to light and I will then see yet that sin. As a person who is no longer living in darkness, I won’t deny that sin.

    Let me try to recap just a bit, please let me know if I have misunderstood you:

    You - We are forgiven all our sins
    Me - We are forgiven all our sins

    You - We need to ask for forgiveness when we sin
    Me - No need to ask for forgiveness its been forgiven

    You - 1 John teaches we can lose fellowship
    Me - 1 John teaches we don’t even have salvation if we don’t have fellowship

    You - We need to confess or acknowledge our sins to have a fellowship
    Me - We should rest knowing nothing can separate our fellowship

    You - Confession of sin must be an ongoing event in our life to commune with God
    Me - Our communion with God is never hindered by anything because of His grace

    You - We are given perfect righteousness to enter Salvation
    Me- We are given perfect righteousness to enter not only Salvation but a fellowship

    You - 1 John 1:9 is something intended to be done every time we sin
    Me - 1 John 1:9 is a one time event at the time of Salvation

    You - We restore ourselves when we 1 John 1:9 ourselves.
    Me - He restored us even before we sin, therefore we can come boldly to Him

    My hope is that this great and awesome truth will be realized, and it will let grace come to an even better realization to any reader. I am sure your goal is the same, you want the reader to see the need for obtaining fellowship. I see Christians on a rollercoster ride, the ride I was on, always worried about their fellowship. Good one minute, bad the next depending on our confession. Jesus said this life was an abundant life.

    God Bless you Brother!

    With love

    Chet
     
  8. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

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    Blessings Chet,

    You - We are forgiven all our sins - yes
    Me - We are forgiven all our sins - yes

    You - We need to ask for forgiveness when we sin
    Me - No need to ask for forgiveness its been forgiven – Tell your wife next time you offend or let her down, “honey, I asked you to forgive me right after I said ‘I do’ once and for all! I’ll not say it again.”

    You - 1 John teaches we can lose fellowship
    Me - 1 John teaches we don’t even have salvation if we don’t have fellowship – true, relationship is a prerequisite of fellowship, but I sense you haven’t embraced their exclusivity. Once we make Jesus Lord of our lives, if you draw a graph of our relationship and fellowship, relationship is a flat line at the top of the graph – straight across! Fellowship is an up and down thing due to our sins/walk. Repentance restores estranged fellowship with Christ, much like it does with your wife. Chet, if you shrug off hurting your wife, and fail to apologize, does your fellowship with her suffer? I hope the answer is yes! Then how much more so our Lord Jesus Christ? This type of asking for forgiveness is an apology. It has nothing to do with asking Jesus to save us again. It is to restore fellowship. If you don't apologize to your wife, you are still husband and wife (relationship), but the fellowship needs mending by way of an apology.

    You - We need to confess or acknowledge our sins to have a fellowship – Restore fellowship
    Me - We should rest knowing nothing can separate our fellowship – Relationship: fellowship suffers and must be restored (wife example again).

    You - Confession of sin must be an ongoing event in our life to commune with God – No, walk in the light.
    Me - Our communion with God is never hindered by anything because of His grace – Communion is fellowship, which you again confuse with relationship.

    You - We are given perfect righteousness to enter Salvation
    Me- We are given perfect righteousness to enter not only Salvation but a fellowship – Yes, but fellowship is broken by sin and only repaired through repentance.

    You - 1 John 1:9 is something intended to be done every time we sin – Correct!
    Me - 1 John 1:9 is a one time event at the time of Salvation – Your wife wouldn’t like it, let alone our Lord!

    You - We restore ourselves when we 1 John 1:9 ourselves. – Correct!
    Me - He restored us even before we sin, therefore we can come boldly to Him

    When they asked Jesus “how we should pray,” He said “Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us. And lead us not into temptation.'" (Luke 11:4 NIV) Can't get away from that verse!

    Beginning in Acts 8:18 we have the story of Simon who is a disciple. I believe it is a reasonable assumption to say that he is saved since he is active in Jesus’ ministry. But Simon asks wrongly for power, for a sign, and what does Peter tell him? “Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. (Acts 8:22 NIV)

    Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. (James 5:14-16 NIV)

    The example here is to portray that broken fellowship can sometimes cause sickness. Notice very carefully Chet that it says “will be forgiven.” Who – “any one of you.” It’s talking to brothers about brothers. By your argument, it should have said “have been forgiven.” This is not talking about forgiveness unto salvation but forgiveness to restore fellowship. "so that you may be healed." - physically and spiritually (fellowship).

    [ August 28, 2001: Message edited by: wellsjs ]
     
  9. Chet

    Chet New Member

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    Wellsjs,

    We will get into Jesus prayer. It is not a prayer for Salvation nor for the saved.

    Wells, you are comparing a human relationship with that of the most unique
    relationship one can fathom. I am not in a position to forgive my wife for everything in
    the future, nor her me. We are humans who are conditional people. God has
    deemed us forgiven for all sins regardless of our actions of confession or not. And
    because of that my fellowship can’t be broken. I understand fully you think there is a difference in relationship and fellowship. I agree. But our relationship with Christ is far beyond our comprehension, a relationship that is always of a good fellowship.

    You used the word apologize. Great word. I agree we should be very apologetic.
    A prayer could be one that includes an acknowledgment of sin, and a repentance of sin and one of being sorry. But regardless we are forgiven, so to keep saying “Please forgive me so I can come to your throne again” is an oxymoron

    Concerning Acts 8 and Simon. Give me some time to study this. I always assumed that
    he was lost, but I may be wrong. J.V. McGee teaches he was a lost man. But to me vs 13
    may teach otherwise. Give me some time to study, thanks for pointing it out.

    In the Book of James brother, this is dealing with faults among Christians. Not necessarily with God. I do think that horizontal forgiveness must be sought in order to have fellowship.

    Thanks for the discussion bother. God bless,

    Chet
     
  10. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

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    Chet said, "We will get into Jesus prayer. It is not a prayer for Salvation nor for the saved.

    You used the word apologize. Great word. I agree we should be very apologetic.
    A prayer could be one that includes an acknowledgment of sin, and a repentance of sin and one of being sorry. But regardless we are forgiven, so to keep saying “Please forgive me so I can come to your throne again” is an oxymoron."

    On your last statement, I think we are on common ground and COULD conclude this discourse. If you wish to carry on into the Lord's Prayer, that would be great, because I like "sharpening iron together!" :D

    On your first statement, perhaps you are speaking of the sermon on the mount in Matthew, but my reference is of a very similar "prayer teaching" in Luke that begins with:

    One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples." He said to them, "When you pray, say: "'Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread. Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us. And lead us not into temptation.'" (Luke 11:1-4 NIV)

    This prayer is clearly a "disciple's prayer!"

    God bless brother!
     
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