1 John 2:2 and Limited Atonement

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by LRL71, Sep 10, 2002.

  1. LRL71

    LRL71
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    Can anyone explain the relationship of 1 John 2:2 to the Doctrine of Limited Atonement. I have not been able to find a satisfactory article about how to reconcile the Doctrine of Limited Atonement with this verse. I am convinced that Limited Atonement is biblical, but I am having trouble understanding this verse as it relates to Limited Atonement. It 'seems' to contradict the Doctrine of Limited Atonement, and the best article I have found was written by A.W. Pink. Anyone's help is graciously appreciated! :confused:
     
  2. tyndale1946

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    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    I John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

    2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    Notice that the word world is used in both passages and both worlds mentioned are the same world. To make both of these scriptures harmonize and not make the doctrine of Limited Atonement a contradiction, the elect world of his blood bought children must be the only ones in reference to... His sheep out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation.

    I come down from heaven not to do mine own will but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Fathers will that has sent me of all the Father hath given me I shall lose nothing but raise it up again at the last day. If the Father gave him the whole race of mankind... He will save the whole race of mankind. According to scripture then there would be no reason for a hell because all men would be saved and never go there!

    The Limited Atonement is for all that God calls having elected them to be saved in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. Bringing that Salvation that he chose his children to in time without any interaction on their part. Limited atonement is all of God and none of man. Being limited it is only for his elect children and no one else. Primitive Baptist brethren have always believed in the doctrine of Limited Atonement and you are right it is biblical no matter what anyone says!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  3. pinoybaptist

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    Those who oppose the doctrine of Limited Atonement will always insist that the word world refers to all humankind notwithstanding that such interpretation will contradict many passages in the Bible.
    For instance, the Bible says that those who are in Christ have died to sin, or that God was, in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, or that God is angry with the wicked everyday, or that God will in due time destroy this present world.
    In explaining other doctrines such as the Doctrine of the Trinity these same opposers will use illustrations such as the trichotomy of man, or the three forms of matter.
    Yet, they will refuse the illustration that in this world there are many "worlds" which we often refer to, ourselves, in every day language.
    Within this world, for example, we have the "world of business", or the under"world", or the world of "computers" or the academe world, each "world" having a characteristic of their own, a language of their own, even a culture of their own.
    Indeed, they will scoff at such illustrations.
    But, let's take a look at facts:

    If God loved this entire world of humankind, and gave His only begotten Son to die for all humankind, then all humankind have been saved, all should be dead to sin, and there ought to be no more fear of hell or retribution.

    In addition, the Holy Spirit, being the Author of the Scriptures, and always meticulous and exact in His choice of words, would always use "mankind"
    or man, signifying the generic term of the word, instead of deliberately being discriminating in using "His people" as in "for He shall save His people from their sins", or "them", as in "them He also predestinated...." or "them he also glorified".

    Perhaps by looking at the Old Testament, which is the shadow of things to come, we can understand the Doctrine of Limited Atonement better for in the Old Testament we find that God institutes blood atonement among national Israel, to atone only for the sins of national Israel, who are the chosen nation of God picturing His future atonement for His elect which is spiritual Israel.
     
  4. tyndale1946

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    "AMEN!"... PinoyBaptist!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  5. ScottEmerson

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    John 1:29: "The next day John saw Jesus coming towards him and said, 'Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.'"

    What is the "world" here? Exegete B. F. Westcott says: "The fundamental idea of kosmos [world] in St. John is that of the sum of created being which belongs to the sphere of human life as an ordered whole, considered apart from God....the world comes to represent humanity in its fallen state, alienated from its Maker."

    John Calvin says of this verse: "He uses the word sin in the singular number for any kind of iniquity; as if he had said that every kind of unrighteousness which alienates men from God is taken away by Christ. And when he says the sin of the world, he extends this favor indiscriminately to the whole human race."

    Ryle similarly states: "Christ is...a Savior for all mankind....He did not suffer for a few persons only, but for all mankind....What Christ took away, and bore on the cross, was not the sin of certain people only, but the whole accumulated mass of all the sins of all the children of Adam....I hold as strongly as anyone that Christ's death is profitable to none but the elect who believe in His Name. But I dare not limit and pare down such expressions as the one before us....I dare not confine the intention of redemption to the saints alone. Christ is for every man....The atonement was made for all the world, though it is applied and enjoyed by none but believers."

    Robert Lightner comments: "Those who always limit the meaning of those terms (pas and kosmos) in contexts that deal with salvation do so on the basis of theological presuppositions, not on the basis of the texts themselves."

    Walter Martin, founder of the Christian Research Institute, observes: "John the Apostle tells us that Christ gave His life as a propitiation for our sin (i.e., the elect), though not for ours only but for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2)....[People] cannot evade John's usage of 'whole' (Greek: holos). In the same context the apostle quite cogently points out that 'the whole (holos) world lies in wickedness' or, more properly, 'in the lap of the wicked one' (1 John 5:19, literal translation). If we assume that 'whole' applies only to the chosen or elect of God, then the 'whole world does not 'lie in the lap of the wicked one.' This, of course, all reject."
     
  6. KenH

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    Look at the context, Scott. God's people whom He has saved are no in the lap of the wicked one.

    (1 John 5:18-19 NKJV) We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. {19} We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

    Do you not see a contrast here, Scott, between those born of God and the whole world under the wicked one? Please tell me you do!

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite

    [ September 10, 2002, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  7. pinoybaptist

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    Nice try, Scott. But nowhere do these men say that all the world's sin has been atoned for.

    credits to
    his by grace for the following:
     
  8. Ray Berrian

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    Greek scholars say: In Kenneth S. Wuest's "IN THESE LAST DAYS--GREEK NEW TESTAMENT" pg. 111 Dr. Wuest says about . . . .

    (Vincent), ‘the whole world.' Compare I John 4:14; John 4:42; 12:32. ‘The propitiation is as wide as the sin'

    {Bengel}. If men do not experience its benefit, the fault is not in its efficacy.

    [Dusterdieck cited by Huther} says, ‘The propitiation has its real efficacy for the whole world; to believers it brings life, to unbelievers, death.'

    {Luther} ‘It is a patent fact that thou art a part of the whole world; so that thine heart cannot deceive itself, and think, the Lord died for Peter and Paul, but not for me.'

    (Smith) comments: ‘There are sins, special and occasional, in the believer; there is sin in the world; it is sinful through and through. The apostle means, ‘for our sins and that mass of sin, the world.'" [​IMG]
     
  9. Primitive Baptist

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    The best commentary on the Bible is the Bible itself. Paul wrote, "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." (2 Tim. 4:3, 4) There has never been a greater religious fable taught than that of Unlimited Atonement. Arminians must first prove that the word "world" always means every man without exception; something they have failed to do thus far. The Greek word "kosmos," they contend, always means every man without exception. I beg to differ with that.

    "For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith." (Rom. 4:13)

    In this text, Abraham is referred to as the "heir of the world."

    "Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be." (Rom. 4:18)

    In this text, Abraham is referred to as the "father of many nations."

    world = many nations

    The Gentiles are referred to in the Scriptures as the "world."

    "Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?" (Rom. 11:20)

    When it is stated in Scripture that Jesus Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the "whole world," it is teaching that Jesus Christ died for His sheep who were scattered throughout the whole word, or all the nations. It might help to note what the same author wrote in his Gospel, "And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad." (Jn. 11:51, 52) Jesus Christ died for those whom were already designated as His children.

    "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:" (Gal. 3:13)

    Christ redeemed whom? Christ was made a curse for whom? He redeemed and was made a curse for "us." The curse of the law was removed from all the children of promise when Christ became a curse for them, in their room and stead, 2,000 years ago. Redemption is not a continuous act. It was done, completed in the past. Jesus cried, "It is Finished!" He did not say, "I have done my part, now you do your part!" The old hymn writer wrote, "Full atonement, can it be? Hallelujah! What a Savior." I believe in a Savior who actually saves. However, if Christ redeemed every man without exception, they are all redeemed and the curse of the law has been removed. Therefore, there is not legal grounds of condemnation for any.

    "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for US ALL, how shall he not with him also freely give US all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of GOD'S ELECT? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for US." (Rom. 8:32-34)

    If just one soul for whom Christ died could be charged or condemned, Paul had no argument.

    The Bible teaches about an "everlasting covenant" (2 Sam. 23:5) that was sealed with the blood of the "Great Shepherd of the sheep" (Heb. 13:20) The writer makes a direct allusion to John 10:11, "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep." Not all men are designated as His sheep: "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." (Jn. 10:26) I also read that this covenant was "ordered in all things, and sure." (2 Sam. 23:5) Nothing that depends on the will of man to be successful is ordered in all things and certainly not sure. Brethren, this is Old Baptist doctrine. [​IMG]

    "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood OUT OF every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Rev. 5:9)

    "Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:" (Gal. 1:4)

    Christ redeemed according to the will of God. Jesus said, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." (Jn. 6:39) I can just imagine an Arminian comment on Galatians 1:4 -"Christ died for the world that He died to deliver us from." :rolleyes:

    "Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (Titus 2:14)

    Did Jesus redeem unto Himself a peculiar people? Yes or no...
     
  10. Primitive Baptist

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    Also, the Old Testament was full of symbols that would later be fulfilled in the New Testament. God had a certain, particular people in the Old Testament whom He chose. The sacrifices pertained to them only by way of remission of sins. When the high priest went into the holy of holies, He made intercession for the people like Christ did for us (Is. 53:12). The intercession of the high priest secured the blessings for those on whose behalf he was interceding. For whom did Christ intercede? If He interceded for all, why are not all secure in the blessings of God???
     
  11. Ray Berrian

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    Are we going to listen to the Greek scholars interpret the Word or Augustine who never took one course in the Greek language? Calvin, as I see it, merely 'rubber stamped' what his Roman Catholic brother said was the truth. I thought only Catholics believed that the teaching arm of Catholocism can never be wrong. Apparently, we have some 21 century Christians who also honor the excathedras of the Roman church via Augustine.

    If we are not going to value the scholars, who have the Word of God at heart, then we all can be 'arm chair theologians' with our KJV. {I have always used the King James Version}

    When God said that He died for 'not ONLY for our sins, but the sins of the whole world, He was telling the readers of the copied manuscripts that His appropriation of the atonement was not only to those presently saved, but for all those who are under the bondage and control of their sins. Does not His Word also say that ' . . . all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God?' Our Lord's death made possible the cancellation of any and every sin committed by human beings. When we 'believe' we by His grace receive the atonement and are saved.
     
  12. russell55

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    Ray,

    You keep calling Augustine Roman Catholic. Only the Roman Catholic church itself thinks the Roman Catholic church existed in Augustine's time. Of course, if you want to accept Roman Catholic revisionist history as the truth, I guess I can't stop you.

    [ September 11, 2002, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]
     
  13. Ray Berrian

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    russell55,

    Check your history. St. Augustine was a Roman Catholic. Why? Do you think he was Protestant?
     
  14. KenH

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    The Catholic Church as a separate entity as we know it today did not exist in Augustine's day. If that is not true, then you are welcome to present evidence to the contrary.

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
     
  15. russell55

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    [​IMG]

    You know as well as I do that the protestant church did not exist in Augustines day.

    And neither did the Roman Catholic. [​IMG]
     
  16. Ray Berrian

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    My point was not that Augustine might have been Protestant, but rather there are Protestant denominations who are still teaching Augustine's view of election and limited atonement, for example.

    Does the Roman Catholic Church point back to St. Augustine as their revered saint and theologian? The answer is in the affirmative. [​IMG]
     
  17. russell55

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    Of course they do. But then again, they also consider St Paul to be their revered saint and theologian. Doesn't make Paul a Roman Catholic, or mean the Roman Catholic church follows his teachings, does it? Hey, they even say Peter was their first pope. Does that make it so? Does that make Peter Roman Catholic? C'mon...

    Does the Roman Catholic church share Augustine's view of election? Not hardly. The Roman Catholic church is semipelagian, meaning it is closer in belief to the particular heresy Augustine was fighting against than it is to Augustine's belief.

    [ September 13, 2002, 12:36 AM: Message edited by: russell55 ]
     
  18. BobRyan

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    Actually - Heb 11 makes it clear that the promise made to Abrham was of a Heavenly home - a heavenly city whose builder and maker is God. Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the Earth. A New Heavens and a New Earth wherein righteousness dwells.

    Abraham will indeed - literally inherit the earth. "These all having died WITHOUT receiving what was promised" Heb 11:39

    He has yet to receive that "World" promised - The New Earth - however I would not discount God's promise that the saints WILL literally inherit the Earth.

    Your attempts to edit that term down to "well it's just the earth in my backyard" do not do the text justice nor can the frequent and tired "redefinitions" of terms like "World" by Calvinists stand the test of scripture.

    Let's take 1John 2:2 for example.

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ September 14, 2002, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
  19. BobRyan

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    Let us look at 1John 2 with the redefinition that Calvinism "needs" for the person of the 2nd part (We/Us/Our) and redefine that to mean "elect Jews only" so that "World" can be redefined to mean "Elect GEntiles and Elect Jews Only" or more precisely "The arbitrarily elect few of Matt 7" .


    1 My little children, I am writing these things to you (elect JEWS ONLY) so that you (elect JEWS ONLY) may not sin. And if anyone (elect JEWS AND GENTILE ONLY) sins, we (elect JEWS ONLY) have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;


    Already the text is so compromised by using the redefinition for the person of the 2nd part to mean - elect JEWS ONLY -- as Calvinism "needs it". IT makes general salvation principles (those that apply to both Gentile and Jewish Christians) needlessly restricted to "elect Jews only" - simply because "Calvinism needs it" - such that only "Elect Jews" have an ADVOCATE when ANYONE sins.


    2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our (elect JEWS ONLY) sins; and not for ours (ELECT JEWS ONLY) only, but also for those of the whole world (elect JEWS and Gentiles) .

    3 By this we (ELECT JEWS ONLY) know that we (ELECT JEWS ONLY) have come to know Him, if we (ELECT JEWS ONLY) keep His commandments.


    The universal salvation principle that applies to both Gentile and Jewish Christians alike - is restricted to "elect Jews Only" when the redefintion for "We/Us/Our" is allowed to be "redefined" in the way that Calvinism "needs" it.


    5 but whoever (elect Jew and Gentile ONLY) keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we (elect JEWs only) know that we (elect JEWS only) are in Him:


    The redefinition required by the model of Calvinsm in 1John is unworkable since it takes unniversal concepts of salvation and deliberately restricts it "to elect Jews only". As if John had started his book with -- "Now to the elect Jews scattered throughout the world -- I write.."


    15 Do not love the world (of elect Jews and Gentiles only) nor the things in the world (of elect Jews and Gentiles only). If anyone (elect Jews and Gentiles) loves the world (of elect Jews and Gentiles), the love of the Father is not in him.
    16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world (of elect Jews and Gentiles).
    17 The world (of elect Jews and Gentiles) is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.

    18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we (elect JEWS ONLY) know that it is the last hour.



    28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we (elect Jews ONLY) may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.


    The attempt to redefine "WE/US/OUR" such that it refers to "elect Jews only" and "WORLD" refers to "ELECT JEWS and GENTILES ONLY" in 1John 2 - is problematic, and is not demanded by the wording in the text but is simply "needed" in Calvinism to support its model.

    Of course in the 5 point Calvinist model - it is not I that have chosen to highlight these points - but God has sovereignly caused me to do it - in any case, redefining the person of the 2nd part to mean "elect Jews only" in the book of 1 John causes more problems than it solved.


    1John 1:9 "If we elect Jews confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive the elect Jews only and cleans elect Jews only from all unrighteousness"
     
  20. BobRyan

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    Scott,

    Those were good quotes - what were the references?

    Do you also have one for Calvin claiming that we "we seem to have an arminian text" when it comes to scripture?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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