1 John 2:2 and the 'sins of the world.'

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by whetstone, Jun 30, 2005.

  1. whetstone

    whetstone
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  2. BobRyan

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    Ye old "blogger" seems to claim that it is easier to twist and bend John 11 to Calvinism's usages than 1John 2:2.

    He may be right.

    If we could get people to SEE a twisted version of John 11 whenever they READ 1John 2:2 "maybe" Calvinism would "look better" to them as they read 1John!!

    His argument seems to have merit to the extent one might actually be able to view scripture in that bent sorta way.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    A better question is "will you tell us what you think of the comparison"?
     
  4. BobRyan

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    While I admit that some English translations use “propitiation” instead of “Atoning Sacrifice” it is instructive to note that the same term is used in Ezek 44 where they translate the word as “Sin offering”. Ezek 44:27 “Sin offering”.

    So the NIV is correct in translating this as “Atoning Sacrifice” for the “Sin offering” of Lev 16.

    NIV


    NASB translates Hilasmos as “Sin offering” –
     
  5. BobRyan

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    As 1John 4 says - God sent Christ to be "The Savior of the World"
     
  6. johnp.

    johnp.
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    God sent Christ to be "The Savior of the World"
    Failed then did He? Or am I twisting Saviour into Saviour?

    john.
     
  7. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    Are you saying that there are no Christians in virtually every land on the surface of "the world"?

    Seems to me, Jesus is a tremendous success!
     
  8. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Hello Wes.
    Since you say He is the Saviour of the world why is the world not saved but only some?
    If only some are saved then Jesus is not the Saviour of the world merely some of it.

    To be a Calvinistic word twister I should warn you that I have twisted the word 'Saviour' into meaning Saviour. That is one who saves. Let's see you redesign the word to mean enabler.

    john.
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Failed he did not - master Yoda!

    Died for the World He did.

    The sins of the world - are now ALL open to pardon as "whosoever WILLS' chooses to accept!!

    ONLY Calvinism discounts the work of Christ on the cross - the ATONING SACRIFICE for the WHOLE WORLD!!

    IN Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. Bob Krajcik

    Bob Krajcik
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    Arminianism limits the atonement. Arminians say each and every person has been redeemed, but that it didn't mean actual salvation for it is left to the man to settle the matter, for it all centers on if man will do the right thing (judicial). He will not save unless the man does the right thing.

    Never mind that man has never done the right thing, and therefore needs a Saviour that will actually save them.

    Calvinism says there were particular and specific ones that have been redeemed and each and every one shall certainly be saved. He shall save His peopel from their sins. (grace)

    [​IMG]
     
  11. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Hello Grasshopper.
    Failed He did grasshopper. Saviour mean One who saves.
    Died for the world He did not Grasshopper. He shall save His peopel from their sins. (grace)
    He did so Grasshopper. :cool:
    Not so young one. Pay attention to your teacher. :cool: The atonements works without the atoned for doing anything but being in the atoned for. Choice resides with Sovereignty. He died for those He chose.
    Can't discount it any further than Jesus has! :cool: ISA 55:1 "Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost.

    john.
     
  12. Wes Outwest

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    I must respond with a question.
    If as you say, we are saved by Grace and since God's grace is upon All of his creation and has been since ADAM with the exception of the flood, why is it that "only the elect" can be saved?

    At least Jesus has saved people in the whole world, but Grace has saved NO ONE!

    It is Jesus who died to remove the penalty of sin
    It is Jesus who arose from the grave victorious over death.
    It is Jesus who said whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

    If it is grace that saves, why didn't grace die to atone for the sin of the world?
    Why didn't grace tell us that if we believe in Grace we shall not perish but have everlasting life?
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    1John 4
    14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.



    Calvinism loves to claim that "God failed" unless we "redefine and downsize the gospel".

    Sad.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Died for the World He did.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    But the Bible said ...

    Strike two for John P

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The sins of the world - are now ALL open to pardon as "whosoever WILLS' chooses to accept!!
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Wrong again.

    Lev 16 shows that the ones being atoned for - ALREADY confessed their sins prior to the Day of Atonement service. It happens at the end of the ceremonial year - but EACH day in that year we had confession and a guilt offering.

    Strike three - "yoda is out"

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    1John 4
    14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

    Though the NT authors could testify to this -- JohhP seems to be having a hard time doing it - when not denying it outright.
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    "Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that COULD BE theirs" NIV -- God
     
  18. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    Now you are committing open faced lies? You are truly getting desparate Bob K.

    I know of no Arminian leaning person who would even conceive that there are any limits on Jesus' atonement, nor that atonement equals salvation! That is strictly a CALVINIST Bastian!

    No Arminian leaning person has ever equated having faith in God with "doing the right thing", for none of them believe that having faith is "doing something", that is a CALVINIST stronghold!

    Looking back in History, I certainly agree that of all the people who ever lived, but who are not now living or are waiting to live, there have been notably, quite a number that we modern thinkers would call SAVED! We can even look back on many of them and state that they were Elected to their roles in life by divine intervention. However, you cannot look back in history and declare who all of the saved are by name or that only those who were "elect" are saved. YOU cannot do that! It is not possible for you to do that any more than it is possible for me to declare who were among the 3000 added to the numbers on Pentacost!

    Grace does not save!
     
  19. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Hello Wes.
    Still believing in 'if'? Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved...
    What can I say to such a crushing argument but you beat me. :cool: Amazed :cool:


    Hello Bob.
    And I have seen and testify that the Son has failed the Father because He is not the Saviour of the world with the definition of 'world' you use. :cool:

    Listen. saviour means One who saves.

    john.
     
  20. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    Don't shortchange what Paul is telling the Ephesians. He is not telling them that grace saves them, but rather that their faith is what causes God to bestow upon those with faith, His free gift of Everlasting life (being saved). And that there is nothing about them, or anything that they can do to "earn it".
     

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