1 John 2:2

There are only two sides to the issue.

Either propitiation is to "all" which includes not just humankind, but the world, demonic, angelic, and all other matters that are involved or can be concluded as the "all" inclusive as relating to the world.

That thinking leads to heretical teaching.

OR

The propitiation is limited and NOT to "all" as some seem to desire.

The word "all" is either all of the group or all of a subset in a group.

IMO, for some who want to argue against "limited atonement" and that the "all" is universal - then they actually do embrace at least in part Universalism.

For some who want the "all" to be limited to a subset, it is a matter of what is inclusive in the subset.

Either all is unlimited = unlimited atonement = all go to heaven for all are redeemed, even if they don't want it.

Or all is limited = that is only the all of those going to heaven actually go to heaven.

On the BB, the "ALL" is limited, by the rejection of the heresy of Universalism.

Those who desire to argue against "limited atonement" should at least acknowledge their "all" is "limited" as anyone else on the BB.

One other point.

Why did John write?

30Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

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John did not write to non-believers - but to believers who needed an accurate record to show foundation-ally what belief rested upon - the Word which was made flesh.

It is that same theme in ALL John's writing, and I dare say Paul's, too.

 

Not sure which verse you are referring.

But John concludes BOTH the Book of John and John 1 almost the same:

John 20:

30Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.


1 John 5:
13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.

Perhaps, you are posting to answer another person, or post, and this one got scrambled into it instead.

 

thisnumbersdisconnected

It is interesting to see the same people still objecting months later.They have not read the scriptural solutions offered. So repeating the thread is still in order.:thumbsup::love2::thumbsup: Rippons opening quotes have exposed all of these falsehoods.

 

I didn't bother going back to the beginning, just looked at the date on the older post prior to today's entry. Wow!! Six years??

We are desperate for content, aren't we?

 

Seems like it. As this is indeed six years. Is a lot for a thread!

 

Not a problem, and now that I know you what you are addressing, let's see how your view resounds.

If the "all" is not limited, and "propitiation" means satisfy, then God is satisfied with all people and none go to hell - no matter the sin - for God is not concerned about sin - even that sin of unbelief.

That is in essence what you are stating, correct?

 

All you have to do to know who John was referring to when he used the words "whole world" in 1 John 2:2 is to see how he used these same exact words in this same book.

1 Jhn 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

In this same book John said the "whole world" lieth in wickedness, so it is impossible that he is speaking of believers here.

Therefore, when John said Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the "whole world", he was also speaking of unbelievers.

Albert Barnes points this out in his commentary;

Christians are not under the control or dominion of Satan, so when John used the term "whole world" he is absolutely speaking of unbelievers.

 

I really think you need to review what is written below to clarify your thinking on this verse.

It will greatly help you in understanding why my view is different than yours.

John Gill writes:

And he is the propitiation for our sins,....
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For the sins of us who now believe, and are Jews:

and not for ours only; but for the sins of Old Testament saints, and of those who shall hereafter believe in Christ, and of the Gentiles also, signified in the next clause:

but also for the sins of the whole world;
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the Syriac version renders it, "not for us only, but also for the whole world"; that is, not for the Jews only, for John was a Jew, and so were those he wrote unto, but for the Gentiles also. Nothing is more common in Jewish writings than to call the Gentiles "the world"; and , "the whole world"; and , "the nations of the world" (l); See Gill on ; and the word "world" is so used in Scripture; see John 3:16; and stands opposed to a notion the Jews have of the Gentiles, that , "there is no propitiation for them" (m): and it is easy to observe, that when this phrase is not used of the Gentiles, it is to be understood in a limited and restrained sense; as when they say (n),

"it happened to a certain high priest, that when he went out of the sanctuary, , "the whole world" went after him;''
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which could only design the people in the temple. And elsewhere (o) it is said,

"amle ylwk, "the "whole world" has left the Misna, and gone after the "Gemara";''
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which at most can only intend the Jews; and indeed only a majority of their doctors, who were conversant with these writings: and in another place (p),

"amle ylwk, "the whole world" fell on their faces, but Raf did not fall on his face;''
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where it means no more than the congregation. Once more, it is said (q), when

"R. Simeon ben Gamaliel entered (the synagogue), , "the whole world" stood up before him;''
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that is, the people in the synagogue: to which may be added (r),

"when a great man makes a mourning, , "the whole world" come to honour him;''

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i.e. a great number of persons attend the funeral pomp: and so these phrases, , "the whole world" is not divided, or does not dissent (s); , "the whole world" are of opinion (t), are frequently met with in the Talmud, by which, an agreement among the Rabbins, in certain points, is designed; yea, sometimes the phrase, "all the men of the world" (u), only intend the inhabitants of a city where a synagogue was, and, at most, only the Jews: and so this phrase, "all the world", or "the whole world", in Scripture, unless when it signifies the whole universe, or the habitable earth, is always used in a limited sense, either for the Roman empire, or the churches of Christ in the world, or believers, or the present inhabitants of the world, or a part of them only, Luke 2:1; and so it is in this epistle, 1 John 5:19; where the whole world lying in wickedness is manifestly distinguished from the saints, who are of God, and belong not to the world; and therefore cannot be understood of all the individuals in the world; and the like distinction is in this text itself, for "the sins of the whole world" are opposed to "our sins", the sins of the apostle and others to whom he joins himself; who therefore belonged not to, nor were a part of the whole world, for whose sins Christ is a propitiation as for theirs: so that this passage cannot furnish out any argument for universal redemption; for besides these things, it may be further observed, that for whose sins Christ is a propitiation, their sins are atoned for and pardoned, and their persons justified from all sin, and so shall certainly be glorified, which is not true of the whole world, and every man and woman in it; moreover, Christ is a propitiation through faith in his blood, the benefit of his propitiatory sacrifice is only received and enjoyed through faith; so that in the event it appears that Christ is a propitiation only for believers, a character which does not agree with all mankind; add to this, that for whom Christ is a propitiation he is also an advocate, 1 John 2:1; but he is not an advocate for every individual person in the world; yea, there is a world he will not pray for John 17:9, and consequently is not a propitiation for them. Once more, the design of the apostle in these words is to comfort his "little children" with the advocacy and propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, who might fall into sin through weakness and inadvertency; but what comfort would it yield to a distressed mind, to be told that Christ was a propitiation not only for the sins of the apostles and other saints, but for the sins of every individual in the world, even of these that are in hell? Would it not be natural for persons in such circumstances to argue rather against, than for themselves, and conclude that seeing persons might be damned notwithstanding the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, that this might, and would be their case. In what sense Christ is a propitiation; see Gill on Romans 3:25. The Jews have no notion of the Messiah as a propitiation or atonement; sometimes they say (w) repentance atones for all sin; sometimes the death of the righteous (x); sometimes incense (y); sometimes the priests' garments (z); sometimes it is the day of atonement (a); and indeed they are in the utmost puzzle about atonement; and they even confess in their prayers (b), that they have now neither altar nor priest to atone for them; See Gill on 1 John 4:10.

(l) Jarchi in Isaiah 53.5. (m) T. Hieros. Nazir, fol. 57. 3. Vid. T. Bab. Succa, fol. 55. 2.((n) T. Bab. Yoma, fol. 71. 2.((o) T. Bab. Bava Metzia, fol. 33. 2.((p) T. Bab. Megilla, fol. 22. 2.((q) T. Bab. Horayot, fol. 13. 2.((r) Piske Toseph. Megilla, art. 104. (s) T. Bab. Cetubot, fol. 90. 2. & Kiddushin, fol. 47. 2. & 49. 1. & 65. 2. & Gittin, fol. 8. 1. & 60. 2.((t) T. Bab. Kiddushin, fol. 48. 1.((u) Maimon. Hilch. Tephilla, c. 11. sect. 16. (w) Zohar in Lev. fol. 29. 1.((x) Ib. fol. 24. 1. T. Hieros. Yoma, fol. 38. 2.((y) T. Bab. Zebachim, fol. 88. 2. & Erachin, fol. 16. 1.((z) T. Bab. Zebachim, ib. T. Hieros. Yoma, fol. 44. 2.((a) T. Bab. Yoma, fol. 87. 1. & T. Hieros. Yoma, fol. 45. 2, 3.((b) Seder Tephillot, fol. 41. 1. Ed. Amsterd.

Taken from: The Bible Hub

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Gill apparently didn't believe in using periods.

 

Web you and I finely agree on something, kind of. They, Christians, still die because of what they still are. That which is born of the flesh is flesh. John 3:6
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Cor 15:50

Christians are still flesh and subject to dying in the flesh and are corruptible.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:7

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 1 Thess 4:13,14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. INTO the kingdom of God.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. To enter the kingdom of God.

BTW when that takes place 1 John 3:9 will be a black and white statement and will not be grayed over by adding words.

 

I believe Jesus is the propitiation for every man woman or child who has ever drawn breath of life living or dead.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6 --That is the goal.

In this present time can every Tom, Dick and Harry or Larry, Curly and Mo come to Jesus in order to come to the Father?

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44 The significance of those last ten words are found in my post above. They must be born again.

Think about it. When Abram was called, was his daddy called or was his brother called? God called Abram and changed his name to Abraham. One man. Abraham must be born again. Is God calling and giving the Spirit to all today or as stated here? Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Is God the Father taking all the Gentiles or just some for his name? BTW as in post quoted these have died and to see, enter, inherit the kingdom of God, they will need to be born again. Or as Jesus stated; And I will raise them up at the last day.
Verse 15 of Acts says the prophets agreed with God taking out of the Gentiles a people for his name. Verse 16 Acts 15 After this. I will return. Is this when he raises them up to enter. see, inherit the kingdom of God?

will God bring with him. (Into the kingdom of God, the gospel Jesus preached.) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thes 4:14-17

The propitiation for the sins of the world.

Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Note the residue of men seek both the Lord and those upon whom his name is called.

There is a reason God gave to Israel the feasts of the LORD.

 

Truth

If the Holy Spirit meant to say believers and Jews saints He would of said that. He doesn't need us to place our own understanding in the text. The Holy Spirit doesn't need us to correct Him. He has the power to do that in the first place without our help.

In time, this is calling, including people, and to reveal His love for all even though outside time He knows all those who will be saved.

It is sad to see men living in time thinking they are God and try to see how He does. We are mere men who will die like men outside of Christ.

We are to run to Him in time. When we are outside of time it is to late.

He loved the world not that they will all be saved, but that He sent His Son, that whosoever believes in Him will have eternal life. Believers are the ones who will be saved, not the whole world.

God works in time to draw people with His loving kindness.

Our God does not want any to die, but rather them to repent and live, knowing only those who repent will live in time.

It is hard for man to distinguish between passages that pertain to outside of time, and passages dealing with God working in time.

I like Spurgeon, because he doesn't change passages to get in the way of the Father through the Holy Spirit drawing men to Jesus Christ.

"The Bible, and the Bible alone, is the religion of Protestants; I am the successor of the great and venerated Dr. Gill, whose theology is almost universally received among the stronger Calvinistic churches; but although I venerate his memory, and believe his teachings, yet he is not my Rabbi. What you find in God's Word is for you to believe and to receive. Never be frightened at a doctrine; and above all, never be frightened at a name. Some one said to me the other day, that he thought the truth lay somewhere between the two extremes. He meant right, but I think he was wrong, I do not think the truth lies between the two extremes, but in them both."

"What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I trow not. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. "All men," say they,—"that is, some men": as if the Holy Ghost could not have said "some men" if he had meant some men. "All men," say they; "that is, some of all sorts of men": as if the Lord could not have said "all sorts of men" if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written "all men," and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the "alls" according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth. I was reading just now the exposition of a very able doctor who explains the text so as to explain it away; he applies grammatical gunpowder to it, and explodes it by way of expounding it. I thought when I read his exposition that it would have been a very capital comment upon the text if it had read, "Who will not have all men to be saved, nor come to a knowledge of the truth." Had such been the inspired language every remark of the learned doctor would have been exactly in keeping, but as it happens to say, "Who will have all men to be saved," his observations are more than a little out of place. My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater. I would sooner a hundred times over appear to be inconsistent with myself than be inconsistent with the word of God. I never thought it to be any very great crime to seem to be inconsistent with myself; for who am I that I should everlastingly be consistent? But I do think it a great crime to be so inconsistent with the word of God that I should want to lop away a bough or even a twig from so much as a single tree of the forest of Scripture. God forbid that I should cut or shape, even in the least degree, any divine expression. So runs the text, and so we must read it, "God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

Everyone belongs to the Lord

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

HankD​

 

What constitutes propitiation?

Propitiation provides the means of salvation. In 1 John 2:2 the word is used as a noun, not as a verb, so the verse does not say Christ propitiated us and also the whole world. Calvinism simply rewrites verse after verse to pour their mistaken doctrine into the text.

Only those whose faith God has credited as righteousness are placed spiritually in Christ, and therefore are then propitiated by the washing of regeneration. They undergo the circumcision of Christ and arise in Christ a new creation, holy and blameless, created for good works.

We now have six pages of Calvinists arguing for Limited Atonement, being justified by saying two wrongs (Arminians have posted for General Reconciliation) make right. Lawlessness is on display.

 

When was Jesus set forth as, Propitiation?

Was there a very first one (singular) to make propitiation, propitiatory?

Just maybe that one was set forth at the same as the setting forth of propitiation.

Before the foundation of the world?