1 John 5:1 we become Sons of God after believing, Regeneration after Faith

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by revmwc, Apr 4, 2016.

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  1. revmwc

    revmwc
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    1 John 5:1 makes is abundantly clear

    KJV Whosoever believeth that Jesus Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

    Pas ho pisteuon hoti iesous estin ho christos ek tou theou gegennetai kai pas ho agapon ton gennesanta agapa kai gegennemenon ex autou

    Straight Translation="Individually those think to be true that Jesus to be Christ out from the God making them His son indeed individually that love that God making Christ of Himself"

    God makes everyone who individually believes His sons, because of their Faith in Him. The KJV says is born, others say has been Born, however that perfect passive veerb is not in the original language, as we see above. we see that the Greek states those who think to be true that is believe Jesus to be Christ God makes them His son.

    We see Romans 10:
    9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    Thou that is whosoever or whoever confesses with their mouth and believes with their heart God hath notice this says all believers have already been raised from the dead, has the physical resurrection taken place, we say no, but in God's eye it has taken place because HE promised it would occur.

    Regeneration occurs after one believes and calls in fact it occurs in a nanosecond. At the same time the Holy Spirit enters our hearts and indwells us and at the point of Salvation we are filled with the Spirit. We are Justified, we have imputation of Righteousness which gives us right standing with God. We become Children of God as well as many other things that are accomplished bottom line Faith and calling lead to Salvation and Salvation = Regeneration. That is the proper order that is God's order.
     
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  2. TCassidy

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    You obviously can't read Greek.

    1 John 5:1 Πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ὅτι ᾿Ιησοῦς ἐστιν ὁ Χριστὸς, ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ γεγέννηται, καὶ πᾶς ὁ ἀγαπῶν τὸν γεννήσαντα ἀγαπᾷ καὶ τὸν γεγεννημένον ἐξ αὐτοῦ.

    1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes (present tense) that Jesus is the Christ has been (perfect tense - happened in the past and is responsible for the present faith - believes) born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

    I am not sure what a "straight" translation is, but if you mean a word for word translation with the same word order as the Greek, it would read:

    Every the one-believing that Jesus is the Anointed [out of the = by] God has been [re]generated. And every [the] one loving the One [re]generating is loving and the one having been generated [out of= by] Him.

    I am not sure where you got that nonsense you called a "straight" translation but it certainly is not a translation, of any sort, of 1 John 5:1.

    Please, leave the Greek to those who can actually read it!
     
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  3. Martin Marprelate

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    The verse actually proves the exact opposite of what you are claiming.
    Gegennetai and gegennemenon are both in the Perfect Tense. ESV. 'Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been [already, once and for all] born of God.'
    As Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12:1, 'No one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Sprit.'
     
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  4. revmwc

    revmwc
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    So which Greek word contains the phrase has been in the original language? Christos ek ho theos he gennao carries no such perfect passive verb, also the KJV has the word is added as that verb however those perfect passive verbs must be added to help the English flow the words in the Greek carry no such meaning. The Greek simply says those who have believed are born of God.
     
  5. Greektim

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    First of all, I guess you were unwilling to engage in my thread a few weeks ago where I dealt with this very issue: Syntax of 1 John 5:1 as a proof for monergism (calvinism)

    Secondly, you clearly have not grasped the Greek here, as was pointed out. Do you even know what a perfect tense verb in Greek looks like, much less what it means aspectually related to time?

    Third, your transliteration is incorrect. What you did was list the Greek words in their lexical form, but not as they actually appear in the text in their inflected form. Here it is in the TR in case you thought there would be a variant or something: ο χριστος εκ του θεου γεγεννηται; ho Christos ek tou theou gegennatai. The last word is the perfect passive verb to which you said "carries no such perfect passive verb" and earlier in the OP where you made the outrageously wrong claim "that perfect passive verb is not in the original language, as we see above." I don't think you can see it b/c you don't know Greek.

    Fourth, your statement is quite convoluted where you say, "the KJV has the word is added as that verb however those perfect passive verbs must be added to help the English flow the words in the Greek carry no such meaning." The Greek is a perfect passive and should be rendered "has been born". Not sure what point you were trying to make other than to expose your lack of knowledge of Greek.

    Fifth, and this is the most important, if you believe that the text is indicating that we have been born by God because of our beleiving then would you say the same thing is true of 1 Jn 2:29 and 4:7 where they say in the same grammatical form and syntax "every one that doeth righteousness is born of him" and "every one that loveth is born of God" respectively? In other words, would you say similarly that these texts are indicating that we have been born by God because of our doing righteousness or loving? In other words, you say that faith caused being born by God. But for your argument to hold water, you'd have to say the same thing is taught in 2:29 & 4:7 with the same exact construction and that doing righteousness and loving is what caused us to be born of God. Do you believe that???
     
    #5 Greektim, Apr 4, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2016
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  6. revmwc

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    1 John 2:29

    Ean eido hoti dikaios eimi ginosko hoti pas ho poieo ho dikaiosyne ek autos gennao

    If ye know that righteous exist ye know that individually these produce this righteousness out of themselves born of Him.

    If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

    4:7

    Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

    Agapetos agapao allelon hoti ho agape ek ho theos eimi kai pas ho agapao ek ho theos gennao kai ginosko ho theo

    Beloved love one another because this love out from the God exist indeed individually these love out of the God born of that know these God

    1 John 5:1 where the KJV states is and others here say it is has been is gennao, which means born of, so that as 5:1 states "whoever born of God" Doesn't contain has been or is the word means "born of" When are we born of God, when do we have Agape' love in us, when do we produce that do righteous things, all after we have believed. Not one of us can produce righteousness that God accepts apart from being "born of God" Gennao Theos. Not has been and is just simply "born of God." Not one person can produce t hese things apart for being of God and we can only be of God through Faith, that Faith comes by hearing and hearing form the word of God.
     
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  7. Greektim

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    We really need to improve our punctuation. But I'll try to muddle through it.

    First. you aren't doing transliteration. You are simply changing the inflected form the Greek to its lexical or dictionary form. No wonder you don't see the real verb tenses. You are actually changing the text.

    Second: no one is adding the words "have been" to the verb "born". Those words need to be supplied in English to make some sense of the perfect tense and passive voice of the verb gennao which is rendered in all 3 verses as gegennatai. So in every case, it should be he/she/it (and in this case the subject is the articular substantival participle "believing" or "doing" or "loving") has been born.

    Third: you actually made my point and shot yourself in the foot. You say "not one of us can produce righteousness that God accepts apart from being 'born of God'". FACT! We are agreed. Therefore, you are interpreting 1 Jn 2:29 in such a way where being born of God causes the righteous doings. Then you said "not one person can produce these things [like doing righteousness and love] apart for being of God [sic.; assuming you mean "being born of God"]. FACT! Therefore you are interpreting 1 Jn 4:7 in such a way where being born of God causes one to love others.

    If that is the case, then you are forced to make the same conclusion of 1 Jn 5:1. You must interpret it to say that being born of God causes one to believe. Ergo, regeneration causes faith.

    You have to say that because the same exact grammar and syntax is present in each of those 3 passages. The only thing that is different is the substantival participle acting as the subject of the perfect passive verb gegennetai "having been born": dong righteousness, loving, believing.

    Therefore, monergism is correct here. Your faith doesn't cause your spiritual birth. It is your spiritual birth that causes your faith.
     
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  8. revmwc

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    Believing causes one to Love, produce Righteousness and become a child of God. Each of these shows us that fact. The problem is that most of those who must manipulate the scripture to say has been born of, do so to fit their doctrine, and not to make the English flow. Going by a straight that Greek to English the way we find in most interlinear Bibles causes folks to say how bad an interlinear is because it doesn't fit the pattern they were taught by someone to follow the Greek. Find the original writing and translate or transliterate it with out making the English flow and you find the true meaning. Also as I stated in the previous thread on syntax one must not seek the syntax of the verse but of the letter what was the writers intent of the letter and then the sentence will follow the syntax. What was John's intent on this letter? To show how we are to walk after salvation, for instance 1 John 1:9 we are to confess our sins and God will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. We can only walk a life for Him if we have our sin confessed. So many in SBC churches when they pray publicly say forgive us our sins, first not one person can confess my sin except me, and not one can confess others sins for them, it must be a one on one with God when we confess and we are to name them one by one after salvation. This keeps us walking in Love, keeps us producing righteousness and keeps the Holy Spirit filling us that we must be Controlled by the Holy Spirit in order to produce all these things. That is John's point, how does it occur when we place our faith in Him. We must confess John uses the word if and maybe we will and maybe we won't confess our sins, it is up to us it is our volition to Confess or not to. Just as through our volition we choose to believe or reject, John shows how our volition is at work throughout this book.
     
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  9. Internet Theologian

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    As others have answered you, nope, not even close. But you are tenacious when you're wrong, I'll give you that! :)
     
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  10. Greektim

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    I hate to do this, but let's break this down and really pick it apart.

    My thoughts are in red, fyi.

    Can you quote the verse that said that? You are conflating "believing" from 1 Jn 5:1 onto 2:29 and 4;7. All 3 have "have been born" by God/him, but only 5:1 mentions "believing". So each verse is not teaching about faith but being born by God. What you should say is "having been born by God causes one to love, produce righteousness and faith.

    Manipulate Scripture??? You are the one who has been transliterating incorrectly. What you wrote is incoherent Greek. It certainly is not what the actual Greek text has.

    Who cares about the English??? I care about the Greek. And the Greek uses a perfect tense passive voice verb gegennatai from the word gennao. Perfect tense typically means a completed action in the past with ongoing results into the present. The closes we have for such a thing is the helping word "have/has". The passive voice also requires a helping word in English "being". Therefore, the phrase gegennetai ek theou must be translated "he/she/it has been born by God." This isn't about fitting a doctrine. It is simply Greek grammar.

    This makes no sense! You have yet to display the original writing nor the ability to transliterate it. All you do is take the lexical form of each word and transliterate that. And this is not about "making the English flow" but rather bringing out the perfect tense passive voice verb in translation!!!

    None of that removes the implications that John is making by way of his grammar, semantics, and syntax. You can no more say that than I could of any text that you are arguing for. Rather, the syntax of each word to each other is what eventually results in understanding the intent of the letter as a whole. You can't understand the letter as a whole without addressing the grammar and syntax of each word and phrase.

    There are numerous verses that state the purpose or intention of the letter of 1 John. And 1 John 1:9 isn't any of them. So I am thinking that your last argument doesn't even hold water since that is not even John's stated purpose for writing. Look at 1:4 and 5:13 (off the top of my head).
    Rev, I believe you can't read Greek. What in the world qualifies you to engage in the discussion of its grammar and syntax??? I can't tell a surgeon how to operate. Maybe you should stop telling grammarians and translators how to do their jobs.

    This isn't about forcing a doctrine into a text. It is about being honest with the text and seeing the text give the only viable option based on grammar, semantics, and syntax.
     
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  11. Greektim

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    Maybe we can do it from this angle.

    Which causes what in 1 Jn 2:29 and 4:7?

    Does "doing righteousness" and "loving" cause one to be born by God. Or is does being born by God cause one to do righteousness and love others???
     
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  12. TCassidy

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    γεγεννηται - a verb in the perfect tense, passive voice, indicative mood, third person, singular.

    Once again proving you can't read Greek.
     
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  13. Greektim

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    TCass... can you ban revmwc since he is changing the text of Scripture to suit his purpose???

    I ask partly in jest.

    But have you notice what he's been doing? When he thinks he is transliterating, he is simply taking the lexical form of every word and rendering that rather than the inflected form that appears in the text. Ergo, he doesn't say the text says gegennatai but simply gennao. And if it is gennao then it is neither perfect nor passive. What is more, the Greek that he does put up breaks Greek grammatical rules and is simply incoherent nonsense. Like the preposition ek taking the nominative theos??? Or using Christos as the subject of a 1st person singular verb gennao. He is changing the text, I've told him this, and he has no idea what he is doing or talking about. He is doing more harm than good to the text.
     
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  14. Internet Theologian

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    This sums it up imo...

    wile-e-coyote.jpg
     
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  15. Internet Theologian

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    Yup. This is what I have been talking about. This type of teaching is not about 'differing opinions' whatsoever. It is flat out blatant error and it is witnessed time and again.
     
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  16. TCassidy

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    Yes, the bible really frowns on what he is doing.

    Romans 1:25 "Who changed the truth of God into a lie ..."

    Revelation 22:18 "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to them, may God add to him the plagues which are written in this book.
    19 If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, may God take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book."
    Yes, but it gets difficult to continue to have him pour out his vomitus, representing himself to understand Greek grammar and syntax when it is abundantly obvious he knows absolutely nothing at all about the subject, but rather is making a public fool of himself, and destroying any credibility he may have once had. Once he gets the reputation of being dishonest about his knowledge of Greek he will be assumed to be equally dishonest about all else. :(
    Yes, I noticed that. I also commented on his "straight" translation that was incoherent gibberish and bore no relationship at all to what the bible actually says. :(

    revmwc, please! Stop! You are embarrassing yourself!
     
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  17. revmwc

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    And gegennEtai= Born of and says nothing of has been but that one is born of usually following God that Theos.
    Gamma epsilon gamma epsilon nu nu Eta Tai iota is your word with the Greek Alphabet which is that gegennEtai just for the record.
     
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  18. Greektim

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    Instead of spelling it... can you parse it?

    Can you tell us the verb's person, number, tense, voice, and mood???

    (you learn this in 1st semester Greek, btw)
     
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  19. revmwc

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    First you say I can't read it now you want a grammer lesson?
     
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  20. Internet Theologian

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    My friend, several have here attempted to correct you on several areas of theology and soteriology many times.

    Take some advice, you either need to go sit under some sound men and listen, and hang up your pride as you are in error, and allow correction. Or, you could listen to the good men of God in this thread who are attempting to correct you with sound instruction. Please do not teach this error to others. What you are teaching is grave error and that teaching needs to be opposed as does some of your other teaching.
     
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