1 John 5:16-17

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Larry in Tennessee, May 22, 2003.

  1. Larry in Tennessee

    Larry in Tennessee
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    If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. (1 John 5:16-17)

    :confused: :confused: :confused:

    I thought the wages of all sin is death, both physical and spiritual, but this passage says there is a sin unto death and a sin not unto death. What's the difference? Any thoughts?
     
  2. preacher

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    I thought the wages of all sin is death, both physical and spiritual
    True, though the spritual death loses it's sting through the Blood of Christ for the believer.

    there is a sin unto death and a sin not unto death. What's the difference? Any thoughts?
    On this part I've wondered myself. I do believe a believer can get into sin, God chastises him, he refuses to repent & eventually will die sooner than he needed to. We all have an appointment with death...but God can choose to change to appointed time.
    Here's another thought, we know that death is a separation. Wheather of the spirit & body (physical) or the spirit & God (spiritual).
    If death is defined this way then a person could be in a particular ministry, fall into sin,destroy his testamony to the degree he could NEVER be used in it again, thus that minstry died.
    The man & the ministry are separated.
     
  3. USN2Pulpit

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    Could this mean a physical death? Did Ananias and Sapphira sin a "sin unto death," meaning a physical death?
     
  4. Larry in Tennessee

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    Thanks Preacher, that makes alot of sense. If a Christian falls into sin, and refuses to repent, the Lord may decide to take their life sooner rather than later.

    USN2Pulpit, yes they did. They lied to God, and God took their lives for it.

    Thanks for your responses!

    Love in Christ,
    Larry
     
  5. Artimaeus

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    But, these verses seem to indicate that we should be able to tell the difference so that one we pray for and the other one we don't. How do we know the difference? I don't know.
     
  6. Frogman

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    It would seem that in the cases brought out by preacher that this would be evidenced by the fruit of the Christian. Being separated from the ministry as such, this would be evident as a church membership fell away and the minister refused to recognize or consider it may be time for a change or for a repentance. Grant it this would not always mean that such a thing has happened. I would think of hand that as long as we pray always seeking the will of God that there will be no wrong among brethren in praying in error concerning something.

    I do have another question brought up by the thoughts you guys have shared. Would God really 'change' the appointed time of the death of a child? I don't think so, but I may be wrong.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas
     
  7. preacher

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    let me answer with a question...do you think God would take a child to get someones attention. If thats the case then if that person repented instead of being stubborn to the point on his childs death, did God change an appointed time?
     
  8. dianetavegia

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    Baker's Evangelical Dictionary says: But those who walk in darkness while claiming to be in the light (1:6), who hate believers (2:9), and who deny that Jesus is the Messiah (2:22) are committing deadly sins.

    1599 Geneva Study Bible says: We have to make prayers not only for ourselves, but also for our brothers who sin, that their sins be not to death: and yet he excepts that sin which is never forgiven, or the sin against the Holy Spirit, that is to say, a universal and wilful falling away from the known truth of the gospel.

    Jamieson, Fausset, Brown says: If any . . . see--on any particular occasion; Greek aorist.
    his brother--a fellow Christian.
    sin a sin--in the act of sinning, and continuing in the sin: present.
    not unto death--provided that it is not unto death.
    he shall give--The asker shall be the means, by his intercessory prayer, of God giving life to the sinning brother. Kindly reproof ought to accompany his intercessions. Life was in process of being forfeited by the sinning brother when the believer's intercession obtained its restoration.
    for them--resuming the proviso put forth in the beginning of the verse. "Provided that the sin is not unto death." "Shall give life," I say, to, that is, obtain life "for (in the case of) them that sin not unto death."
    I do not say that he shall pray for it--The Greek for "pray" means a REQUEST as of one on an equality, or at least on terms of familiarity, with him from whom the favor is sought.

    "The Christian intercessor for his brethren, John declares, shall not assume the authority which would be implied in making request for a sinner who has sinned the sin unto death (1 Samuel 15:35, 16:1, 3:29), that it might be forgiven him" [TRENCH, Greek Synonyms of the New Testament]. Compare Deuteronomy 3:26. Greek "ask" implies the humble petition of an inferior; so that our Lord never uses it, but always uses (Greek) "request." Martha, from ignorance, once uses "ask" in His case (John 11:22). "Asking" for a brother sinning not unto death, is a humble petition in consonance with God's will. To "request" for a sin unto death [intercede, as it were, authoritatively for it, as though we were more merciful than God] would savor of presumption; prescribing to God in a matter which lies out of the bounds of our brotherly yearning (because one sinning unto death would thereby be demonstrated not to be, nor ever to have been, truly a brother, 1 John 2:19), how He shall inflict and withhold His righteous judgments. Jesus Himself intercedes, not for the world which hardens itself in unbelief, but for those given to Him out of the world.

    17. "Every unrighteousness (even that of believers, compare 1 John 1:9, 3:4. Every coming short of right) is sin"; (but) not every sin is the sin unto death.
    and there is a sin not unto death--in the case of which, therefore, believers may intercede. Death and life stand in correlative opposition (1 John 5:11-13). The sin unto death must be one tending "towards" (so the Greek), and so resulting in, death. ALFORD makes it to be an appreciable ACT of sin, namely, the denying Jesus to be the Christ, the Son of God (in contrast to confess this truth, 1 John 5:1,5), 1 John 2:19,22, 4:2,3, 5:10. Such wilful deniers of Christ are not to be received into one's house, or wished "God speed." Still, I think with BENGEL, not merely the act, but also the state of apostasy accompanying the act, is included--a "state of soul in which faith, love, and hope, in short, the new life, is extinguished. The chief commandment is faith and love. Therefore, the chief sin is that by which faith and love are destroyed. In the former case is life; in the latter, death. As long as it is not evident is a sin unto death, it is lawful to pray. But when it is deliberate rejection of grace, and the man puts from him life thereby, how can others procure for him life?" Contrast James 5:14-18. Compare Matthew 12:31,32 as to the wilful rejection of Christ, and resistance to the Holy Ghost's plain testimony to Him as the divine Messiah. Jesus, on the cross, pleaded only for those who KNEW NOT what they were doing in crucifying Him, not for those wilfully resisting grace and knowledge. If we pray for the impenitent, it must be with humble reference of the matter to God's will, not with the intercessory request which we should offer for a brother when erring.

    I've pretty much highlighted what I feel this is saying.

    Diane
     
  9. Larry in Tennessee

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    Thanks Diane. If the sin unto death is the denial of Jesus, is this the same thing Jesus was talking about when He said that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would never be forgiven?
     
  10. dianetavegia

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    That's how I read it Larry and have heard it preached my whole life. All sin is forgiveable except forever shunning the call to salvation from the Holy Spirit.

    I've witnessed to people who knew, felt it in their hearts and yet refused salvation 'right now' because they wanted to continue in their sinful lifestyle or just felt their sins were 'too bad'.

    On bus visitation a number of years back we were deep in the orange groves visiting the migrant workers. My partner went into the shack to talk with the children and parents but I felt led to remain outside with the uncle. I had talked with him before and just felt so strongly that today was the day. I began to witness to him again and he again told me that 'God won't take me. I've done some awful things.' He squatted down and picked up a stick, began drawing in the sand. The Holy Spirit spoke to me to use the example of Jesus drawing in the sand when the crowd wanted to stone the woman caught in adultery. The young man looked up at me, crying, and said, "But you just don't know what I've done". He walked away and they were gone when we went back the next week. Maybe he finally realized that Jesus died for all sins..... like I told him.... and maybe he's still living in his sin... I don't know but that has always been a perfect example to me of one who knew and felt God's call and turned it aside.

    Diane
     
  11. dianetavegia

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    Sin can and does lead to a physical death also. I'm heading out to our church picnic but didn't want to overlook that earlier question.'

    Consider this scripture:

    Partaking of communion without a repentent heart has caused illness and death. ...."many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep"

    John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

    1 Corinthians 11:30

    For this cause many are weak and sickly…
    Because of their unworthy participation of the Lord's supper, many in the Corinthian church were attended with bodily infirmities and diseases; either by way of fatherly chastisement and correction in such who were truly the Lord's people, though they had behaved unworthily; or by way of punishment to such who were not, and had sinned very grossly:

    and many sleep;
    that is, die a corporeal death, which is often in Scripture signified by sleep, and frequently used of the saints, and their death, and may intend and include some of them here; for though the Lord might resent so far their unworthy conduct and behaviour at his table, as to remove them out of this world by death, yet their souls may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


    Diane
     
  12. preacher

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    " and many sleep;
    that is, die a corporeal death, which is often in Scripture signified by sleep, and frequently used of the saints, and their death, and may intend and include some of them here; for though the Lord might resent so far their unworthy conduct and behaviour at his table, as to remove them out of this world by death, yet their souls may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
    Actually the way the word "sleep" is used in these & other passages always means saints.
    Also how can it be the unpardonable sin when its speaking of seeing a "brother" sin a sin?
     
  13. dianetavegia

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    The unpardonable sin is rejecting the salvation call of the Holy Spirit which is certainly NOT a brother in Christ.

    The other part of the passage refers to praying for a fellow Christian but the portion that says
    is referring to that rejection.

    Diane
     

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