1 Samuel 13:20-21

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Will, Aug 7, 2001.

  1. Will

    Will
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    Here is an example of a clear cut error in the KJV that was corrected by the newer versions including the NIV. Verse 20 describes the Israelites going down to the Philistines to sharpen their tools. In the newer translations it says in Verse 21 that the "charge was a pim" or 2/3s of a shekel. The KJV translators like their counterparts before them didn't know the meaning of the word pim. In some earlier translations, pim was translated as "mouths" or "cutting edges." The KJV translates pim as a "file" or tool used to sharpen the tools.

    Why were the newer translators, such as those for the NIV, able to avoid this error? Because of an archaeological dig at the fortress city of Lachish along with several other sites, stone counterweights carved with the word pym were discovered. The stones weighed about a quarter ounce (or 2/3s of a shekel.) These stones were used as weights to measure out payments (such as to pay for sharpening.) A great byproduct of this discovery is that is shows an early dating is necessary for 1 Samuel.

    Was this a knowing error by the KJV translators? Of course not, but it does show the benefits of newer translations.

    [ August 07, 2001: Message edited by: Will ]
     
  2. Theopolitan

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Will:
    Was this a knowing error by the KJV translators? Of course not, but it does show the benefits of newer translations.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Oh THANK you for that!! I would lay awake sweating over that! I felt my salvation was at stake over that tool-sharpening. But NOW that I know that a pim is a unit of measurement I am so much closer to Jesus! :D

    Just kidding!!
     
  3. Will

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    Theopolitan:

    This of course is not an important theological issue to anyone except those who contend that the KJV is without error. It's either correct (in Samuel 13:21) that a pim is a tool for sharpening or a payment amount, both can't be correct.

    The KJV is clearly in error.

    If someone cannot show otherwise, then let's all agree once and for all that the KJV is, although a good translation of God's word, imperfect and contains some errors.

    [ August 08, 2001: Message edited by: Will ]
     
  4. Dr. Bob

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    Major Premise: All things made by God are Perfect
    Minor Premise: The Inspired Word of God was made by God
    Conclusion: The Inspired Word of God is Perfect

    Major Premise: All things made by man are imperfect
    Minor Premise: The AV1611 was made by man
    Conclusion: The AV1611 is imperfect

    A translation from the inspired Greek/Hebrew into ANY receptor language will derive its inspiration only to the extent that it ACCURATELY translated the original.

    BTW, Just because our language changes does not change that it was accurately translated (into an older form of language). So I am NOT shooting at the AV1611.
     
  5. Rev. Joshua

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    There is a fallacy here:

    MaP: All things made by God are perfect.
    MiP: Humanity was made by God.
    Con: Humanity is perfect.

    Joshua
     
  6. Pastor KevinR

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    Correction. Man was made perfect, but as a free moral agent he chose to act independently from God, so he became imperfect.We were originally made in God's image, but the literal Adam ate the forbidden fruit and lost that image. Only the Second Adam, Christ can restore that image. references upon request. :cool:
     
  7. Will

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    Bob,

    You have posted an excellent guideline on how we should view Bible translations.
     
  8. Rev. Joshua

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    In other words, your definition of perfect does not include always making right decisions.

    So the texts of the Bible were made perfect but fell from grace somehow?
     
  9. Dr. Bob

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    Josh - Would it help to think of God making man "innocent" rather than "perfect"? This allows him to have a probation and opt ill.

    Just trying to use Bible words - God saw what He created and said it was GOOD. And that included Adam.

    But THE POINT is the Word of God. Anything made by man is flawed. It might be in the guidelines for translating or in the individuals biases - but flaws will appear.
     
  10. uhdum

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
    [QB]Major Premise: All things made by God are Perfect
    Minor Premise: The Inspired Word of God was made by God
    Conclusion: The Inspired Word of God is Perfect

    Major Premise: All things made by man are imperfect
    Minor Premise: The AV1611 was made by man
    Conclusion: The AV1611 is imperfect
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Just wondering, if we don't have God's perfect Word today, what is "The Inspired Word of God" that you mentioned in your post, and where can I find it? Just want to know..I'm a perfectionist and God promised to preserve His Word, so I want it...where can I find "The Inspired Word of God?"
     
  11. HankD

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    &gt;&gt;I'm a perfectionist and God promised to preserve His Word, so I want it...where can I find "The Inspired Word of God?" &gt;&gt;

    KJV Psalm 119:89 LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
     
  12. uhdum

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HankD:
    &gt;&gt;I'm a perfectionist and God promised to preserve His Word, so I want it...where can I find "The Inspired Word of God?" &gt;&gt;

    KJV Psalm 119:89 LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I don't mean to be disrespectful to anybody, so that means I can't have God's perfect Word on earth? He said He'd preserve it forever, and we don't have originals...most new Christians reading the Bible through just assume that when God says He'll preserve His Word, that it means His Word will always be available for us, perfect and uncorrupted, forever. I know the Bible says "one jot or title will not pass away," yet today we say that the Bible has errors or that we cannot have God's perfect Word today. Now, once again, I mean no disrespect to anyone, but when I first became I christian I took the Bible to mean that when it said it would be preserved forever, I believed it. And I still hold to that today. I know that saying God's Word is still perfect today is not a very popular belief in Christian circles today, but I believe in holding God to His promises. I don't know Greek or Hebrew, so that may or may not demean my knowledge in the eyes of some of you, but, when I became a Christian, I read the words, "Thou shalt preserve them (God's Words) from this generation for ever" and "Heaven and Earth shall pass away, but my word shall not pass away," and just accepted them just as it said. Maybe I'm shallow in my thinking of God's Word...maybe I interpret it too literally. Well, I believe God is big enough to keep His Word perfect (we all agree on that) but the question is, did He or didn't He? Why would the first-century Christians get access to "God's Inspired, Perfect Word" and we do not? We can't help that we are born at this time in history; God planned that; thus, God has promised to give us His Word, too. So is it that the first-century Christians had an advantage, because God decided not to preserve His Word for us?

    Just a few thoughts [​IMG]
     
  13. Pastor Larry

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I know the Bible says "one jot or title will not pass away," yet today we say that the Bible has errors or that we cannot have God's perfect Word today. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    There are no jots and tittles in the KJV (any of the various editions of it). So right off the bat, in your understanding, you have no Word and that promise is not true.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I took the Bible to mean that when it said it would be preserved forever, I believed it. And I still hold to that today. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I think all of us here agree with you on this. We believe that God has preserved his word forever. What God has not said is where or how he preserved it. You have assumed it to be the KJV but there is not one verse of Scripture that says that. You have added that.

    [quote… when I became a Christian, I read the words, "Thou shalt preserve them (God's Words) from this generation for ever" [/quote]

    You did not read the words you quoted. You have added something in. You read “Thou shalt preserve them from this generation forever.” You have misidentified the antecedent of “them.” The Psalm is not talking about the words but about the godly man. The psalmist is appealing to God’s promise to preserve the godly man.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "Heaven and Earth shall pass away, but my word shall not pass away," and just accepted them just as it said. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I too believe this promise. When I preached from my NASB this morning, I preached the Word of God that has not passed away. If this promise were not true, then no one would have a message to preach.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Why would the first-century Christians get access to "God's Inspired, Perfect Word" and we do not? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The first century Christian did not have access to “God’s Inspired, Perfect Word.” The Hebrew text they would have had was not perfect. The Septuagint text they had was not perfect. The NT was not even completed until AD 95 so at best only the last five years would have theoretically had access to it. However, there was likely not full circulation so people would have had only sections of it. In short, you have made a false statement and then built a doctrine on it.
     
  14. uhdum

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    Pastor Larry, I did not intend to make a "false statement" and "build a doctrine on it." I simply mean to state (which I may have not made clear) that I believe the KJV is superior due to the Greek texts on which it is based. I don't look down on anyone who uses a new version; my pastor uses a NASV and I respect him very much. I'm not conceding defeat (any good Baptist wouldn't do that [​IMG]) but I recognize the possibility of this thread going on forever! I realize the points we are presenting have been shared to both sides numerous times, so I choose not to come back with my own reply (I realize that would provoke another one by you and then by me again...an unending madness ;)) I've learned to pray that God help me realize any false doctrine in my life, so I will continue to pray for that in my life, as I hope you do in yours.

    God bless [​IMG]
     
  15. Ransom

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    CJoshuaV said:

    In other words, your definition of perfect does not include always making right decisions.

    Does the definition of "perfect" necessarily include infallibility?
     
  16. DocCas

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    In Psalm 78:5-7 God states that he has established His testimony and appointed His law for the purpose of teaching each succeeding generation. Every generation has the promise of a preserved Bible, that they "not forget the works of God, but keep His commandments."

    "Forever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven," says the psalmist in Psalm 119:89. God's word has been settled, kept pure, preserved, according to this verse. Some have argued that it is settled in heaven, but not on earth! How foolish! God's word is a revelation from God to man. It is man that needs God's word, mankind right here on earth, not God, or the already redeemed in heaven. God has promised to preserve His word from generation to generation. Those generations are generated right here on earth, not in heaven! Read verses 90-96 and note the rest of the context. 92 says, "Unless Thy law had been my delights, I should then have perished in mine afflection." If "Thy Law" was not preserved on earth as well as being settled in Heaven, how could the Psalmist make such a claim? By the way, "settled" does not mean "preserved." God "settled" I.E. "set or established" His word in Heaven, and has preserved it here on Earth.

    In Matthew 4:4, when Jesus was tempted by the Devil, He replied, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." How can a man live by the Word of God, if he doesn't have it? In order for men and women to live by the Word of God, it must be available to them, God must have preserved it! By the way, I don't want to get too technical with you, but the word "written" is in the perfect tense, meaning that it was written in the past, and has continued right down to the time of Christ, and of course down to this present time also. In other words, God has preserved it! [​IMG]
     

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