1 Samuel 6:19

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Robert Snow, Dec 26, 2010.

  1. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow
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    And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter. 1Sa 6:19 KJV

    I've had a problem with this KJV verse for quite a long time. Many newer versions I have looked at say 70 men which seems much more reasonable.

    What are your thoughts.
     
  2. BobinKy

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    The recent scholarly comments in the study bibles and commentaries in my personal library favor the number 70, rather than the 50,070 listed in the Hebrew manuscripts and KJB translation. The number 50,070 carries a certain ring to it.

    On numerical interpretations such as this, despite the notes and such, I still follow the KJB text.

    . . .


    The NIV text note reads:

    A few Hebrew manuscripts [70]; most Hebrew manuscripts and Septuagint 50,070​

    The NIV Study Bible (1985, p. 491) study note reads:

    6.19. seventy. The additional 50,000 in most Hebrew manuscripts (seee NIV text note) is apparently a copyist's mistake because it is added in an ungrammatical way (no conjunction). Furthermore, this small town could not have contained that many inhabitants.​

    The NRSV text note reads:

    Heb. killed seventy men, fifty thousand men

    The King James Study Bible (1988, p. 463) study note reads:

    The numbers here rest on doubtful textual authority, Josephus held that the correct number was 70, a total read by some Hebrew manuscripts and a more likely translation.​

    Baldwin's commentary (1988, p. 77) reads:

    He slew seventy men of them is a correction made also by the NEB and NIV (cf. the AV, which translates the Hebrew, 'he smote fifty thousand and three score and ten men'). The much smaller number seems more likely to be right because Bethshemesh was only a small town. It is still not clear why the population as a whole should have been afflicted; a clue is provided, however, by Josephus, who says that those who had touched it, 'not being priests', were not worth to touch the art' (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, 6.1.4)​

    REFERENCE
    Baldwin, J. G. (1988). 1 & 2 Samuel. In Wiseman, D. J. (gen. ed.), Tyndale Old Testament Commentaries. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.

    King James Study Bible, The. (1988). [Previously published as The Liberty Annotated Study Bible and as The Annotated Study Bible, King James Version, copyright 1988 by Liberty University.]. Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

    NIV Study Bible, The. (1985). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
     
    #2 BobinKy, Dec 27, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 27, 2010
  3. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow
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    It doesn't seem to me that there would be 50,000 people living in that area.
     
  4. BobinKy

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    Robert...

    I edited my previous post in this thread.

    Yes, some of the recent scholars comment that the town may not have been able to support a population of 50,000.

    However, as I said in my edited post above, I still accept the KJB number, despite the recent scholarly notes.

    ...Bob
     
  5. jonathan.borland

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    If you read Hebrew, the whole thing disappears without even changing the text. ". . . and he struck among the people seventy men, namely, fifty out of a thousand men, and the people mourned . . . ." So the writer tells us that God killed 5 percent of the people. Josephus uses this percentage to arrive at the town's total population, i.e., 1400 people (70 / 0.05).
     
  6. Deacon

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    Josephus 4. 16 LINK But now it was that the wrath of God overtook them, and struck seventy persons of the village of Bethshemesh dead, who, not being priests, and so not worthy to touch the ark, had approached to it. Those of that village wept for these that had thus suffered, and made such a lamentation as was naturally to be expected on so great a misfortune that was sent from God; and everyone mourned for his relation.

    Flavius Josephus (translated by William Whiston, Paul L. Maier), The Works of Josephus : Complete and Unabridged (Peabody: Hendrickson, 1996). p 196
     
  7. Dr. Bob

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    Obvious error. But get an "only" type to admit it? Hah!

    "I still accept the KJB number, despite the recent scholarly notes."

    It's as if some would say "the KJVersion (not Bible) is obviously wrong in this point but if we admit it, it could no longer be our god".

    Odd bunch that will accept blatant error.
     
  8. BobinKy

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    WHOA! How about easing up on the prejudice, Mr. Administrator.

    Dr. Bob, taking my quote

    "I still accept the KJB number, despite the recent scholarly notes."​

    and leaping to your conclusion

    It's as if some would say "the KJVersion (not Bible) is obviously wrong in this point but if we admit it, it could no longer be our god".​

    shows obvious prejudice on your part.

    My accepting a numerical translation, which is in many original Hebrew manuscripts, in no way warrants your sarcasm and discrimination. You are listening to your own prejudice in reaching your conclusion about my quote and my religious faith--you are not listening to what I said in my posts.

    You are wrong here.

    I am not KJVO, but I will defend the King James Bible against obvious prejudice.

    The next time someone posts multiple interpretations, as I did, and says they select one of the interpretations--listen to their words and not your own prejudice.

    You do not have to agree, but you should show respect, rather than use their words to launch your obvious prejudice against KJVO individuals.

    I hope we do not have to repeat last month's exchange about the KJV. Just lighten up on the prejudice and you may find KJVOs doing the same.

    Apology expected.

    ...Bob
     
    #8 BobinKy, Dec 29, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 29, 2010
  9. Dr. Bob

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    uo

    You have the right to accept the KJV's translations. The error in that instance is plain to see if one knows Hebrew and sees the text.

    Never said you didn't have the right to believe whatever you want to believe. 2+2=8 if you'd like.

    I used a hypothetical "as if . . . " to show those who are willingly going to accept error. Not for me. Your choice.

    Quoted you exactly so all could be sure what you said. Again, your words, your choice.

    Joy of being "administrator" is that I, too, can have MY own opinions. You may not agree with them and think I am in error. That is your choice. And the joy of this fellowship.

    Now, if I said "As administrator I am going to force you to believe xyz or agree with me on abc" I'd walk away. Nobody has that right (nobody wants that right).

    Continue to post, my brother. If you don't agree with me, you will probably be hammered but as another "poster" with his own position, not as some authority tried to make you jump thru hoops.
     

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