1 Tim. 2:4

Ray,
You provided no evidence from the context for your interpetation. Let me say again that this verse does not teach Arminianism.

In Christ

 

Swaim,
I will give you a "Lexical" and "Biblical" example of All meaning All "All Kinds".

1.)Lexical-
. 2 collectively. 2A some of all types. Additional Information: …“The whole world has gone after him”Did all the world go after Christ? “Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.”Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? “We are of God, little children” and the whole world lieth in the wicked one” Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words “World”and “All”are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the “All”means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—ome Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile …u8212 C.H. Spurgeon from a sermon on Particular Redemption.

-Enhanced Strongs Lexicon
(All the above is from the computerized Strong's)

I would be more than glad to provide more.

2.)Biblical-

"And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing "all manner of" sickness and all manner of disease among the people."
Matthew 4:23

You asked Secondly:
Also, if Paul is instructing the believers to pray for all kinds of men or all classes of men, does that not include all of the men in the various classes?

Me: What Paul is saying is that we are to make no distinctions in our prayers because of somebodys social status. Jesus does not have His elect in just the "poor" Christians, but from every class and people (Rev. 5:9).

You said:If so, the effect is the same as I have stated; it is universal.

Me: that is what you are yet to prove. Paul is clearly talking about classes of men (vs. 2). It would have been easy for the Christians at Ephesis to not pray for the ones in rulership over them because they were the ones persecuting them, but Paul says we are to pray for them also. This is what the context and meaning of the word bears out.

If you disagree, then please provide evidence that this should be taken in a universal sense.

May God bless us in our study

 

Swaimj,

The word all "can" mean all inclusive. I have never denied that, but the question is what does it mean in 2 Tim. 2:4.

The same greek word, translated "all", is also used in the New Testament to mean "All kinds" or "All manner of" rather than being an all inclusive word(Rev. 21:19,18:12;Rom. 7:8;Acts 10:12;Luke 11:42;Matthew 12:31;10:1).

I could also show you time's where all cannot mean "all inclusive" (Mark 1:5) and also where the word "all" is clearly talking about only Christians (1 Cor. 12:13).

The context in 1 Timothy chapter 2 (vs. 2) is clearly talking about "kinds" of men, which you admit, and should be taken that way. Arminians cannot show why this should be taken in a "universalistic" sense without destroying Paul's purpose and language in the text itself.

If you believe that this should be taken in an "each and every individual" way rather than a generic usage speaking about "kinds", then I must ask you again:

Do you think it is Pauls purpose for Timothy to get down on his knees and pray for each and every, all inclusively without distinction?

Or could Paul be telling Timothy to pray for "all kinds" (kings, rulers, fisherman,etc.), using the term in a "generic" rather than "all inclusive" way, because God desires the salvation of "all kinds" (vs. 2) of men and not just the Jews, poor, etc, and has a people from every "tongue, tribe, and nation"(Rev. 5:9)?

We do not know who the elect are, we are told to pray for all men (vs. 2) despite their class because God has an elect people (John 6:37) from all "kinds" of men (Rev. 5:9). This is clearly what Paul is focusing upon when he mentions all men (vs. 4).

The Arminian interpretation cannot be defended from 1 Tim. 2:4.

May God bless us both in our understanding

 

ILUVLIGHT,
Please see my post above for a refutation of your assertion on the word "all".

You may think that my interpretation "doesn't line up with scripture" but I think I have proved that to be false while you have yet to provide a consistent positive presentation of why the word "all" should mean each and every individual without distinction.

If you think the word "All means all". Then please comment on my last post, and provide evidence from the context. I am subject to the scriptures not the ridicule of man.

May God bless you and me in our understanding as we study. I appreciate your willingness to discuss this important issue.

-your brother in Christ

 

Swaimj,
My apologies. I went back and read your post and you did NOT say that it means all kinds.

But if you do not believe he is speaking of kinds of men, then:

what are "Kings" and "those in authority"? Are they "classes of men"?
Yes or No.

I am trying to say that we are to pray for all rulers without "distinction" (of class, vs. 2). Paul is using a 'generic' usage of the word all. The Bible is full of these examples: please go back and read my last post.

You are saying that he is speaking about all rulers without "exception". If this is so will you now answer my question that you did not answer in your last post.:

Do you think it was Pauls purpose for Timothy to get on his knees and pray for each and every person without exception? If so, too bad they did not have a phonebook.

Or...

Is Paul speaking of classes of men in vs. 2, and using the word "all" generically?

Your usage of the word all is not backed up by the immediate context. If you admit that Paul is not telling us to get the names of each and every individual without distinction then you must admit that he is using the word generically. If he is using the word generically, then your assertion that it means "specifically" each and every person falls to the ground.

In Christ

 

Swaimj,
I understand what you are trying to say, but let me show you your error. Take another passage for example:


"And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing "all manner of" sickness and all manner of disease among the people."
Matthew 4:23 (Emphasis mine)

Here is the same greek word for "all" translated "all manner of". Jesus did not heal every disease "all inclusively", but he healed "all" diseases (all without distinction to "KIND"). There was no "type" or "kind" that he did not heal. This does not mean that he healed each and every disease without exception, as your interpretation would lead to.

We are to pray for "all manner of" men. This does not mean we have to get the names of every individual and start at the A's and pray to the Z's (All inclusive) but that we are to pray for all men, despite their "class" (all without distinction). Their is not type of person we should not pray for, because God would have "all" (all manner:Kings,Fisherman,etc.) men to be saved. He has men "from" each type (Rev. 5:9; John 11:50ff.)and not the totality of each type. Jesus healed diseases "from" all types, but he did not heal each and every disease in the world (all inclusively).

I don't think that you see the result of how you view this verse. Hopefully those viewing these posts will see that if he is speaking about "all men without exception, then we must pray for all men without exception. I hope that you have a big phone book.

But I believe he is speaking about all men without distinction. If the person is a baker, pray for them. A fisherman? pray for them. A President or King? Pray for them. Because God has not confined salvation to a "kind", but has a people "from" every class and kind (Rev. 5:9).

By the way, it doesn't matter who is on your side, if the Bible is not. Great men can be wrong, but the scriptures never err.

In Christ

 

SwaimJ,

You Said:

An argumetn from another passage proves nothing in this passage. You and I have both said that the word "all" can mean "all without exception" or "all without distinction". The question is: what does it mean in this passage. Showing me the meaning of another passage proves nothing here.

ME:

So you agree that it can mean "All without distinction" when speaking of kinds just as I showed in my last post on Matthew 4?

If so, is Paul not clearly talking about "Kinds" of men in (vs. 2) when setting the context. What are Kings and those in authority? Are they different from the poor, fisherman, etc?
You admit that it can mean this, and the context bears it out.

I would simply point out that your "each and every individual without distinction" view of the word "all" cannot be defended from the immediate text. On what basis do you get this view from the context when Paul is clearly talking about "kinds" of men?

Anyone reading this will hopefully see that this is speaking about "All without distinction" as to class. If it is not please explain how he is speaking of "kinds" of men and we then all of a sudden jump out of no where to an "all inclusive use" of the word "all". This stretching has to be done in order to protect the Armininan interpretation.


You Said:

These two verses are not talking about praying for people to come to salvation. The purpose of prayer for "all men" and for "kings and all who are in authority" is "that we may live a quiet and peaceable life".

Me:
Oh, so Paul is not using this to reference salvation at all? Then why are you defending an Arminian interpetation which says Pauls purpose is to show that God's will is to have "all" men saved in 1 Tim. 2:4?

Me:
(From website)

The follwing from the cited website is helpful:

The apostle's meaning is simply this: We should never assume that a particular man is necessarily reprobate just because he happens to be a king or a ruler. Nor should we presume that prayers for him are pointless or futile. God has chosen people from every station of life—including rulers—unto salvation. Prayers for those in authority are of multiplied benefit, since rulers exercise control over the lives and welfare of their subjects.

Me: The prayers have a two-fold aspect, that we may live a peaceful life and because they might be one of the elect. This is what Paul is talking about and your inconsistent interpretation should be now be obvious to all who view these posts.