1 Timothy 2:11-12

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Shortandy, Mar 23, 2010.

  1. Shortandy

    Shortandy
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    God has been giving me opportunity to speak at several gatherings for men and the topics I keep being given are things like "Men being men" and Biblical masculinity.

    After a retreat this weekend I had a guy come and ask me a question about 1 Tim. 2:11-12. To told him I would spend some time studying and get back with him. So I am throwing it out there for you guys to supplement my studies.

    What do we do with this passage...how does it apply in our context?
     
  2. swaimj

    swaimj
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    I think it means that no women should respond to this thread!
     
  3. Amy.G

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    Good one! [​IMG]
     
  4. Tom Butler

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    Paul doesn't contradict himself. When he admonished the congregation at Corinth (I Cor 11), he instructed the women not to pray with their heads uncovered. He was speaking in the context of how to behave in church. A woman can't pray in church and keep silent at the same time.

    So I Tim 2:11-12 must be interpreted in the light of I Cor 11.
     
  5. kyredneck

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    ...hehe, maybe the men would be better off not to respond either..........
     
  6. Shortandy

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    If anyone is willing to be serious....can you try to answer the authority part. I am not questioning prayer but authority.
     
  7. RAdam

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    I think his meaning is that women should not be teaching in the church or have roles of authority in the church. That is given to man. However, we see in the closing verses of the chapter that the woman is given an incredibly important task, that being teaching the kids. "Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they (the children) continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety." You'll see the same apostle in the 5th chapter say that one of the requirements of a widow that is a widow indeed is that "she have brought up children." Also he says a few verses later, "I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully." Notice the task given the woman, that being to "guide the house." The whole foundation of society is the home, which explains why the American society is eroding before our eyes.

    That godly mother is crucially important. All of us that had good godly mothers would agree. Our mothers sacrificed a lot to take care of us, raise us in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, disciplined us when we did bad things, taught us the fundamentals of Christianity, and carried us to the house of God to hear preaching about Jesus Christ. Oh yes, that woman has an important task. She isn't given the task of preaching or authority in the church, but she is given the task of making sure the house is heading in the right direction, and without her doing that task the church is not going to be near as profitable. God, in His incredible providence, has given to men and women separate tasks that are supposed to work together, complimenting each other to His glory and praise. We ought not to rebel against His system but rather try to follow it as closely as we can.
     
  8. menageriekeeper

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    Sorry about the woman thing. :D But:

    You should also consider that church back then meant something else entirely than church does now. They didn't have a bazillion SS classes that needed teachers. The precept holds though, because elsewhere in scripture the older women are told to teach the younger women.

    RAdam is also correct in his views above, though he didn't carry them out as far as I do. Timothy, we are told, was taught much about God by his mother and grandmother (where Timothy's father was, might be a good topic for you), therefore I believe it is fine for women to also teach children. (SS and the like)
     
  9. ChuckLDJ

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    When it comes to women in the church and authority I've come to a conclusion that is difficult for me to put into words. But naturally I'm going to try.

    Women in general tend to be more nurturing than men. I'd even go as far as to say to some degree that they are more caring and loving. God made them this way. Usually when a child gets a "boo boo" he or she wants mom instead of dad. If so, it's because of this nurturing nature.

    When in authority in a church, especially as a pastor, you sometimes have to take a hard stance on an issue. Sometimes you have to call folks to the carpet. These actions could hinder a woman's nurturing.

    Women are one of God's most wonderful and important creations. I think Paul was actually trying to protect the position of the woman and her role in society as the nurturer.

    Does any of that make any sense what so ever?
     
  10. The Archangel

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    I see what you are saying, but it does not make scriptural sense. Paul give his reason (not the word "for") in v. 13-14:

    13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
    Paul locates his reasons for this directive, not in the nurturing of women, but in the order of creation and in the fall.

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
  11. Jerome

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    The man in v. 12 is not:

    men in general,

    any male,

    all men everywhere,

    men at church,

    "men-during-the-sermon-portion-of-the-worship-service-except-for-"special-Sundays"-when-a-"specially-invited"-woman-speaks-at-the-sermon-portion-of-the-worship-service",

    "men-during-Sunday-School-except-when-Sunday-School-consists-of-a-"special-seminar"-taught-by-a-woman",

    or whatever caveat one adds to this scripture to rationalize/defend one's own practice/prejudice.



    The man in v. 12 is:

    the woman's man:

    [Young's Literal Translation]
    Let a woman in quietness learn in all subjection,
    and a woman I do not suffer to teach, nor to rule a husband, but to be in quietness,
     
    #11 Jerome, Mar 24, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 25, 2010
  12. RAdam

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    So it is ok for a woman to teach SS but not in the main part of the service? To me that is inconsistent.
     
  13. The Archangel

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    Um....no.

    The grammar in no way locates the man as belonging to the woman. In fact, there is no grammatical connection between the two.

    The grammar surrounding "man" in v. 12 is generic. In other words, there is no definite article and it is properly translated "of a man," since it is genitive.

    Of course the word translated "man" can also be translated husband. But there is nothing in the immediate context that suggests this should be translated as such.

    I'm not quite sure what you are arguing for or against. Do you think women should be preaching or not? I'm a bit fuzzy on what you are intending to say.

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
  14. Jerome

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    Thanks.
    For your usual greco-echo:thumbs:


    Preaching?

    Um....no.

    The context of this passage is not "behavior at church".

    As you pointed out, what follows the OP scripture describes the relationship of the first man and woman.

    And what precedes it? A remark about modesty.
    Surely Paul is not exhorting Christian women to be modest "just when they gather with the assembly"!
     
  15. The Archangel

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    OK. I think I see what you are arguing for. Let me see if I'm getting you:

    Are you saying women are supposed to be modest at all times?

    Are you saying that only men are to preach and teach (whether at home or in the church assembly)?

    Can you spell out what you are thinking further so I can wrap my head around it?

    The Archangel
     
  16. THEOLDMAN

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    Shouldn't this thread be in the Fundy forum ???
     
  17. Allan

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    I completely agree with your above points. Neither the context nor the grammer suggests that 'man' should be 'husband'. Well said.

    This was going to be my question as well. I guess we are both on the same wave length tonight.. Does that mean you are no longer reformed.. or that I am now reformed ... :laugh:
     
  18. Allan

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    No.
    It is an honest question and the answer has nothing to do with 'Fundy' view points.
     
  19. menageriekeeper

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    The way we do church nowdays is inconsistant with how the early church gathered. So, we are stuck with some inconsistancy whether we like it or not.

    Yes, I believe that as it is good for a woman to teach children and other women, then it is good for a woman to teach children and other women in SS.
     
  20. RAdam

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    I marvel that someone would admit that the church he attends is not consistent with the early church and not only not be bothered by this but use it as an excuse to put women into a teaching role in the church.
     

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