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1 Timothy 3:16 question

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by David J, Sep 1, 2004.

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  1. David J

    David J New Member

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    Just for the sake of making a point to the KJVO Camp, I would like to compare the NASB to the KJV in this verse.

    First of all the KJV(1769):

    1 Tim. 3:16," And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." 1769 KJV

    Notice the KJV is very clear that God appeared in the flesh. I have no complaints at all with the KJV. The message is very clear!

    God:

    God = Jesus Christ

    manifest :

    Main Entry: 1 man·i·fest
    Pronunciation: 'ma-n&-"fest
    Function: adjective
    Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French or Latin; Middle French manifeste, from Latin manifestus caught in the act, flagrant, obvious, perhaps from manus + -festus (akin to Latin infestus hostile)
    1 : readily perceived by the senses and especially by the sight
    2 : easily understood or recognized by the mind : OBVIOUS
    synonym see EVIDENT
    - man·i·fest·ly adverb

    Now to the NASB:

    1 Timothy 3:16(NASB)16 By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness:

    He who was revealed in the flesh ,

    Was vindicated in the Spirit,

    Seen by angels,

    Proclaimed among the nations,

    Believed on in the world,

    Taken up in glory.

    Notice that the NASB(1995) is very clear in this verse just like the KJV.

    He

    First off all He is referring to God. In the NASB the words in caps He, You, Your, His refer to God. If the NASB said he was revealed vs. He was revealed then KJVOist would have a point. As it stands the NASB's usage of He is just as easily understood as using the word God. He = God in this passage.

    revealed

    Main Entry: 1 re·veal
    Pronunciation: ri-'vE(&)l
    Function: transitive verb
    Etymology: Middle English revelen, from Middle French reveler, from Latin revelare to uncover, reveal, from re- + velare to cover, veil, from velum veil
    1 : to make known through divine inspiration
    2 : to make (something secret or hidden) publicly or generally known <reveal a secret>
    3 : to open up to view : DISPLAY <the uncurtained window revealed a cluttered room>
    - re·veal·able /-'vE-l&-b&l/ adjective
    - re·veal·er noun

    Again the usage of the word revealed vs. manifest changes nothing at all. Jesus was manifest. Jesus was revealed. Both refer to the same thing.

    The usage of the word revealed to make known through divine inspiration is what I would consider the better word to use in this passage.

    Again, both the KJV and NASB give the reader the correct interpretation of this verse. I would not consider one better than the other.

    KJVO distortions about this verse fall flat when examined fully.

    This was something that I explained to a friend this week when we were discussing the bible and bible translations. I used this as an example of KJVO distortions.

    I just thought that I would share this with the group.

    Any comments?
     
    #1 David J, Sep 1, 2004
  2. DeclareHim

    DeclareHim New Member

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    Good thought process and of course since the NASB is the most accurate version it's right. NASB is more accurate and word for word than the KJV.

    1cross+3nails=4given [​IMG]
     
    #2 DeclareHim, Sep 2, 2004
  3. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    Good study, David J.

    AVL1984
     
    #3 AVL1984, Sep 2, 2004
  4. DeclareHim

    DeclareHim New Member

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    Sorry I just like the NASB. Didn't mean to make it sound like an attack on the KJV.
     
    #4 DeclareHim, Sep 2, 2004
  5. Old Timer

    Old Timer New Member

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    He vs. God;

    Perfect example of a watered down relationship to the creator of the universe.
    Reducing God to He in a verse of scripture and saying it makes no difference.
    It makes a difference to God.
    I'm sure the publisher of the nasb has its name on the book.
    How sad they felt the liberty to take God's name out.
    Even more sad is the person who would justify and promote such action.
     
    #5 Old Timer, Sep 2, 2004
  6. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    Reducing God to He in a verse of scripture and saying it makes no difference.

    If God isn't a he, what is he? A she? An it? (No, that's an unfair question, considering that the KJV waffles on the sex of the Holy Spirit.)

    "He" is a pronoun. It has to have an antecedent. I defy Old Timer to find an appropriate antecedent for that pronoun in 1 Tim. 3:16 that doesn't point back to God. This cavil against the Word of God is another useless puff of KJV-only hot air.
     
    #6 Ransom, Sep 2, 2004
  7. Old Timer

    Old Timer New Member

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    Sorry ("snipped") but you are 110% wrong again.
    Satan wanted to ascend his throne above God's and now men want to with their modern versions.
    If you have such a casual relatonship with God that you feel comfortable removing his name and replacing it with he then I would say that you are the one that has moved.

    There is no explaination for changing that except for copyright purposes and some other influence that I'll not name.

    [ September 02, 2004, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: dianetavegia ]
     
    #7 Old Timer, Sep 2, 2004
  8. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    Can't be bothered to answer my challenge, eh? Didn't think you would. [​IMG]
     
    #8 Ransom, Sep 2, 2004
  9. David J

    David J New Member

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    I see that you will not address the issue that the NASB refers to Jesus Christ without any gender confusion.

    The NASB refers to God as He. Nothing wrong with this since God:Jesus Christ is "He".

    How did the NASB takes God's name out? He=God=Jesus Christ! Anybody can see this simple truth.

    I smell a double standard here:

    It's wrong for the NASB in 1 Timothy 3:16 to say "He". This is an attack on God! It's wrong to assign gender to God!

    It's perfectly ok for the KJV to call the Holy Spirit "itself" thus reducing the Holy Spirit to an "it" when the NASB calls the Holy Spirit "Himself" thus giving the Spirit the proper gender!
     
    #9 David J, Sep 2, 2004
  10. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    You people need help. I can only pray that God will open more eyes before it's too late. Many Christians are going to stand before Him and he's going to ask them, 'why didn't you do what I told you to do?' and their answer will be 'Well I liked the NASB better where it said this' or 'But Lord, in the original greek...'
     
    #10 James_Newman, Sep 2, 2004
  11. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    In Luke 4:4, Christ tells Satan that man does not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. Satan cut that out of your so called 'modern version' so many years ago that you think that proves He never said it. Now instead of esteeming God's word more than our necessary food, we have a church full of people praying for God to turn rocks into cheese.
     
    #11 James_Newman, Sep 2, 2004
  12. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    Here is yet further proof from whence cometh the information in this man's posts. :eek:
     
    #12 Craigbythesea, Sep 2, 2004
  13. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    James Newman:

    Many Christians are going to stand before Him and he's going to ask them, 'why didn't you do what I told you to do?' and their answer will be 'Well I liked the NASB better where it said this' or 'But Lord, in the original greek...'

    "God is gonna get you people" threat noted, and duly ignored.
     
    #13 Ransom, Sep 2, 2004
  14. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    James Newman claimed:

    Satan cut that out of your so called 'modern version' so many years ago that you think that proves He never said it.

    You know, these KJV-onlyists seem to have a direct line to Satan. That worries me.
     
    #14 Ransom, Sep 2, 2004
  15. Michael52

    Michael52 Member

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    James Newman

    Why limit yourself to Luke? Read the whole Bible. It is wonderful!
    While your at, read I Timothy 3:16. That is what this thread is discussing. [​IMG]
     
    #15 Michael52, Sep 2, 2004
  16. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    You can go back to sleep Ransom, but other Christians who have not made their mind up need to realize that there is a cavalier attitude about the Word today that is not from the Holy Spirit. The Lord is coming back, He does not delay His coming. We need to fear God and keep His commandments. We need to believe His word.
     
    #16 James_Newman, Sep 2, 2004
  17. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    While your at, read I Timothy 3:16. That is what this thread is discussing. [​IMG] </font>[/QUOTE]Not much to discuss, really. Any Church of Christer can tell you that Jesus was indeed a he. The Father is a He also. Jesus and the Father are of one accord that they are both a He. But they will deny that Jesus is God. Can a he that is not God satisfy the penalty for our sins with his blood?
     
    #17 James_Newman, Sep 2, 2004
  18. RaptureReady

    RaptureReady New Member

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    Please tell us the answer, we can't wait to hear this great wisdom.

    My question is WHY? Why did they change "God" to "He?" Do you not believe that "God" is a better rendering? Did they not like the word "God?"

    My theory is, the devil is walking to and fro, seeking whom he may devour. Therefore, when the writers/publishers of the NASB did what they did, the spirit of the anti-christ was there, seeking whom he may devour. But that is just my theory.
     
    #18 RaptureReady, Sep 2, 2004
  19. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    The pronoun He is obviously pointing to Christ Jesus in verse 13.
     
    #19 James_Newman, Sep 2, 2004
  20. David J

    David J New Member

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    My theory is, the devil is walking to and fro, seeking whom he may devour. Therefore, when the writers/publishers of the NASB did what they did, the spirit of the anti-christ was there, seeking whom he may devour. But that is just my theory. RaptureReady

    Um...ok...whatever....ummm...and where is your proof for such slander about the Word of the Most High as found in the NASB?

    Was it the spirit of anti-christ that made the AV translators call the Holy Spirit "itself"? Well RR was it? Surely flirting with feminist gender neutral word theology and calling the Holy Spirit "itself" instead of Himself kinda sounds like the anti-christ at work&lt;---using KJVO logic!

    I could say the same thing about the birth of the modernism known as KJVOism RR. You point is?

    I would suggest that you go back and read my first post. It answers your questions.

    Again, what is wrong with He when He is in caps that refers to Jesus Christ? He is not written he!

    He is:
    God
    Jesus Christ
    Lord
    Alpha and Omega
    etc...

    Man you KJVOist have a hard time with understanding English! Sigh...

    Who is the He that the NASB is talking about? No spin just answer!
     
    #20 David J, Sep 2, 2004
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