12 yr old brides

Discussion in '2008 Archive' started by donnA, May 30, 2008.

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  1. donnA

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  2. hillclimber1

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    I don't see why the mothers have to be deprived of their children. I believe the state is wrong in that particular matter. Yes they seem to be reacting to a reluctance on the part of these moms, to cooperate, but is that reaction proper?
     
  3. donnA

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    First off this thread is about this news report in the link I posted, not the rest of the story. It only says that little girls as young as 12 were forced into 'marriages'.
    For one the mothers allowed their children to be abused and forced to 'marry' older men, sometimes closely related men, which is incest. What kind of mother allows some man to have a fake marriage with their 12 yr old daughter? So the mothers are guilty.
    No the mothers reaction is not proper. They are switching out children, refusing to say which is theirs. They aren't actually claiming their own children.
    How can the state possibly give back children when they don't know who the mother of a child is because she will not claim her own child.
     
  4. queenbee

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    Texas officials began planning how they would return the FLDS children...... starting Monday.

    The draft applies to 330 children. It was not immediately known how the state would handle returning another 110 children.

    Attorneys for the state and the FLDS families are discussing conditions:


    • Allowing unanounced home visits by Child Protective Services .
    • Giving CPS the child's address and a list of people living in the home within 72 hours after reclaiming the child.
    • Agreeing not to remove the child from the state of Texas.
    • Completing parenting classes and furnishing proof of completion.
    • Parents picking up their children would be required to have their photo and the child's photo taken and to sign a release acknowledging they agree to the conditions.

    The proposed pact was being struck a day after the Texas Supreme Court ruled that social workers overstepped their authority in rounding up more than 460 children from the YFZ ranch. Child Protective Services did not present sufficient evidence that children were being abused, the state's highest court ruled, upholding a lower appeals court.

    Well, my only opinion is that CPS did not do a full and complete investigation, leaving the court with no other choice than to return these children. I sincerely hope that these new conditions hammered out by State and FLDS lawyers will go a long way to keeping rigid controls on this sect and force members into openess, but realistically, I am more worried because of the highly secretive nature of this sect, that it will only cause more families to go deeper underground.
     
  5. pinoybaptist

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    The age of the bride is relative to the society and its customs, donna. Here in the United States, most, if not all, will find it very offensive to give away their children to be married off at such an age.
    That is, I think, because we have preconceived ideas of how marriages ought to be, when is the right age to marry, when is one prepared to go into marriage,and so on.
    In our secular society, these ideas usually congregate around finances and economics.

    In other societies, though, 12 year old brides are quite common, especially in primitive societies where the tribe needs to grow in numbers and in properties.

    Having said these, I do not see in the Bible where the age for marriage is set, for both the male and the female.

    Of course, I may have missed it.

    Having said that again, the Bible tells us to be subject to the laws of the government in which we, God's people, live under, and if that government sets the marriage age, then it is indeed a sin for us to go against that law.
     
    #5 pinoybaptist, Jun 1, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2008
  6. Joe

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    :BangHead:
    No tribe NEEDS to grow in numbers. This does not excuse the s*xual assault of a child.
    Not sure how you missed all of those verses which explain how we train up our children.

    It's quite clear that you are attempting to make the s*xual assault of a 12 yr old girl acceptable by labeling it under the guise of a "Bride". You even go as far to say our Lord doesn't condemn it. This is NOT a marriage, and this child is NOT this man's bride. This IS NOT a marriage ordained by our Lord.

    A child is not defined thru a secular numbering system.

    It is NEVER acceptable for a 12 year old child to be ripped from their parents arms, hauled off to become a slave, then r*ped by a grown man.

    A 12 year olds internal s*xual and reproductive organs have not developed as a Woman's. Their bodies have not matured into womanhood.

    This is why we call them a CHILD. They LOOK like a child. Appear visually different than full grown adults.

    SNIP

    I hope the reason you don't endorse the s*xual assault of children is not because it is against the law. You seem to find this acceptable. Relying upon our secular laws to dictate your views on morality is quite dangerous. Your post is disturbing.
     
    #6 Joe, Jun 1, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2008
  7. guitarpreacher

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    I agree - the article says it all. Serious allegations have been made, and if proven everyone involved goes to jail. (I would prefer taken out back and shot, but they haven't asked me) But untill proven, the state has no right to take the children away from their mothers and should give them back immediately.

    It shouldn't be that hard to determine who the children belong to. If Jerry Springer can make it happen, surely the state of Texas can.
     
  8. donnA

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    Tx has been doing DNA testing, this will prove whose children are whose, and prove underage girls are being molested.
    When you suspect abuse, especially sexual abuse you don't send the victims back to the abusers. Which in this case includes mothers. Investigations are never done this way. Here if there are alligations of sexual abuse the child would be removed until it is proven one way or another. Which is usually easier to do then in this case. I suspect that even though there is proof of underage girls being forced to have sex with older men that nothing will ever be done about it. Too many are worried about the rights of the adults, no not many worried about the rights of the children.
     
  9. hillclimber1

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    OK charge every male violator of polygamy or under age marriage immediately, and jail them, pending trial, but get those kids to their moms. The bond between mom and child shouldn't be tampered with to this degree. I would find it hard to convict a mother that was coerced into marrying off her daughter. Those men designed the society, and I can see those women not standing up to them.

    When I think of my babies at that age being faced with this, it makes me glad I've got guns, and that God hasn't put us in that position. As I try to personalize this stuff it makes me madder by the minute.
     
  10. donnA

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    No one wants to understand, the mothers played a part in this abuse! They handed over thier children for sexual abuse! They did nothing to protect their children. They are accomplices, and in Ky would also be charged and sent to prison. It happend earlier this year as a matter of fact.
    Why would anyone find it hard to convict a mother who handed over her child for sex to older men, who agreedw ith it! This is outrageous. A mother is a mother, and she is to take care of and defend her child. these women refuse to be mothers to their children.
    God didn't put them in this position, they put themselves in this position, they allow it.
     
  11. Magnetic Poles

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    I agree with you to a large extent. However, one must remember that these young women are raised in an environment where this is taught to be the way to heaven, and that they themselves had the same thing happen to them. It is ingrained into the way they think...brainwashed if you will.

    Religious beliefs can cause people to do things most of us find abhorrent...from giving 12 year olds to be wives of middle-aged men, to flying aircraft full of innocent people into buidlings filled with innocent people.
     
  12. tinytim

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    Ok, I agree with both MP and Donna...

    The moms are brainwashed, but is that any reason to not protect the children from them? This abuse has to stop somewhere. And maybe once the moms realize the seriousness, and with a lot of counselling the children could be able to go back to the moms.
     
  13. donnA

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    They are still responsible. Does God left soem people off doe their sins? No? Then it doesn't work here either. They are accountable to God and when it is a crime they are accountable for it legally.
     
  14. Magnetic Poles

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    To a large extent, no, they are not responsible. This is the way they are taught. They are victims as well. It isn't as cut and dried as you would think. Abhorrent? Of couse it is, and the kids should be protected. But this is a sad result of what happens when people put religious teaching above common sense.
     
  15. donnA

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    So if you are taught sin is ok, then it is ok, and you are not responsible for it? Don't see that in the bible.
     
  16. pinoybaptist

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    Joe:

    All I have tried to say (and I may have said it wrongly) is that there are different customs in the world, and different laws when it comes to marriage.
    What is right for one, may be entirely wrong for another.
    What is reprehensible for one, may be acceptable to another culture.
    We cannot expect nominal "Christians" to think the way Christians ought to think, or act.
    Neither can we enforce our standards of decency and morality on others.
    We can simply go by what the law says.
    I am sorry you think I am a pervert, which is what you are saying in so many words.
    I respect you though we have not met in person.
    And just so you don't think that my country is a country of perverts because you think I am one, please be informed that in my country, one cannot marry, even with parental consent, if one is under the age of 18.
    Compare that to Lebanon, where the Shia can marry off a 9 year old child.

    I am against child-adult marriage, but not because of biological and physical reasons you have cited.

    SNIP

    Regardless of their physical appearance, they are still kids, whose priorities in life is play, school, friends, this fad, that fad, this toy, that toy, dad, mom.

    Marrying off a 12 year old is robbing that 12 year old of innocence and childhood, and is just about the cruelest thing she or he can be subjected to even in the guise of religion.

    A 12-year old shouldn't have to worry about child-bearing, child-rearing, food on the table, clothings on the back, pills for the sick, doctor's visits, and all the things that adults worry about.

    What an ideal world this would be if everybody and every country thought the way we did, but unfortunately, that is not so, and that was the gist of what I was saying to donnA.

    Lastly, I would love, just like you, to be able to open up the Bible, and show the passages where the Lord wrote down the marriageable ages of both boys and girls, and thus justify my righteous anger at the situation of those children, but unfortunately, there is no specific verse I can point to.

    I can point to some that seem to say so, but what I think the Bible seems to be saying may be thought of by another to seem to be saying something else, or nothing at all.

    God bless you, brother.
     
    #16 pinoybaptist, Jun 2, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 2, 2008
  17. donnA

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    Every country doesn't have to have marrriage laws like ours, but we should be able expect the people in this country to live by the laws here in this country. Like sex with a 12 yr old is illegal, in Tx a 14 yr old can't legally marry. Not to mention most of these marriages aren't legal anyway, because by the laws of this country you can only have one wife at a time. So they aren't even married, they just pick a little girl and take her home and have sex with her. And we do nothing about it, we let them, and even send them back home to the abuse.
     
  18. Joe

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    The bible orders us to care, train up, and protect children. You can look those verses up. When you or others try to create a "grey" area where a 12 year old can somehow be deemed as an adult, it doesn't change what they are. A 12 year old is a child.

    I explained the reasons why a child's body is a child's body, no matter what numerical number the secular world places on her. And what happens when a grown man enters a child's size body. That portion was well typed out (for my abilities), medical websites were checked as I tried to remain within clinical terms but it got edited. So know you missed part of the post.

    Age of consent makes no difference. Unbelievers and believers know what a child is. This is my point. Even if we want to imagine a 12 year old body being a full grown womans body, in real life, it won't change the damage this does to her body. It is still a child's body.

    So that is not the issue here.

    We are grown adults with normal brains. We know a 12 year old is a child with a child's brian and body.

    Their reproductive organs become damaged when a grown man, with full grown body parts, forces entry into a body which is smaller because it is not fully developed into a woman. No matter how delicately it is done, the average size man with average size body parts will cause damage to her insides.

    Children's bodies are smaller, their body cavaties are smaller and not fully developed.

    So with this, their bodies endure mutilation and physical trauma which takes years to heal. When we develop a cut on our arm, the air speeds up the healing process. Other areas inside our bodies are so moist it can take years to heal. Causing intimate relations to be a painful experience because of the friction occuring onto the damaged area. It doesn't heal when it is re-damaged.

    This is painful. Pain NO child should have to endure.

    I explained in detail the long term effects which include everything from a torn and bruised cervix, lacertations on the cervx, to more severe damage. This could cause a 12 yr old to be barren for life.
    Mutilaitng children is not ok, no matter what their age is.

    Cuts and lacarations on the cervix open up the body to internal infections, STD's, and cervical cancers. A grown man could Kill a child by using her body in this manner.

    This portion got edited. I don't know how to explain it otherwise, even went to medical websites to remain within the clinical usage terms but oh well...I know in answering the emergency line, one of the easiest ways to convince children into refusing to having relations with adults is to offer them this information. When they get into discomfort issues, it opens the door to educate them.
    Little girls want to be mothers someday. Grown adults do not have the right to take that away from them.
     
  19. Squire Robertsson

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    Folks, I'vwe tried to keep this thread in an open forum. But, due to the graphic way matters are being discussed, I am closing the thread. I'll be moving it to the 2008 Archives in an hour or so.
     
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