1260 years of persecution of saints - Dark Ages. Good? bad? Infallible?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, May 17, 2013.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Daniel 7 predicts 4 world empires, the division of Rome into 10 - a divided Roman empire and then 1260 years of dark ages persecution of the saints to follow.


    Rev 11, 12, 13 all point to the same world history making event - of 1260 years of dark ages persecution of the saints.,

    Should we consider the dark ages - the persecution of the saints - infallibly correct? Or horribly flawed?

    My preference to to declare them to be horrible flawed - not infallible at all - and to agree never to repeat such horrible crimes against humanity.

    And just to be fair - this applies to all - so any torment and torture or extermination being done by Anabaptist in the dark ages will either need to be defended as infallible or condemned as sin, crimes against humanity etc. The same is true for Adventists in regard to the Millerites before them and the Baptists and Anabaptists before that.

    thoughts?

    =========






    Not according to the Catholic Church - and not according to Latin.

    [FONT=&quot]Catholic Digest 11/1997 pg 100[/FONT]


    Quote:

    The question:
    A Baptist family who lives across the street gave me a book called the “Trail of Blood”, by J.M. Carroll. It attacks Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism, indulgences, purgatory, and so on. But I am writing to learn if there is anything in history that would justify the following quotation:

    “The world has Never seen anything to compare with the persecution heaped upon the Baptists by the Catholic hierarchy of the Dark Ages. The Pope was the world’s dictator. This is why the Anabaptists before the Reformation called the Pope the Anti-Christ”. Then: “Fifty million died by persecution over a period of 1200 years because of the Catholic Church”

    The answer from Fr. Ken Ryan:

    There weren’t any Baptists until 1609, generally thought of as a year occurring after the Dark Ages. (that is why the article above includes Anabaptists) Anabaptists (means anti-baptism of infants – so they re-baptized them as adults) means “re-baptizers” and was a name given to groups existing in the 3rd, 4th, 11th and 12th centuries but they had no connection with the violent civil-religious (Catholic) reformers who appeared in 1521 at Zwickau in Saxony.

    These 16th century Anabaptists rejected Catholic doctrine on infant Baptism and Lutheran justification by faith, among other things, and intended to substitute a new “Kingdom of God” for the social and civil order of their time. John Leyden was proclaimed King of New Sion at Munster where museums and libraries were destroyed and polygamy was introduced. This group AND Many others were Exterminated during the Peasants Wars by a Combination of civil and religious authority. Whether they were persecuted or punished depends on your point of view”
    [FONT=&quot]

    ==============================================[/FONT]


    In the article above – Fr. Ken Ryan makes the meaning of “extermination” of that group and “many other groups” clear for modern readers.
    [FONT=&quot]Catholic apologists like Catholic Digest’s Fr. Ken Ryan quoted above often argue that the RCC isn't accountable for the Inquisition, since the state carried out the torturing and the executions. It was the RCC who defined these people as "heretics", however, and the RCC handed them over to the state (John 19:11).
    [/FONT]



    [FONT=&quot]-------------------------------------------[/FONT]


    [FONT=&quot]In this next example we see that "exterminate' brings with it a death toll of tens of millions 25 milliion? 50 Million? 75 Million?
    [/FONT]




    [FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=45674[/FONT]
    Posted: August 9, 2005
    1:00 a.m. Eastern
    © 2005 WorldNetDaily.com
    I'm also encouraged by Benedict XVI, who seems to have inherited John Paul II's humility as well as his loyalty to foundational doctrines.
    On Jan. 22, 1998, when he was still a cardinal and the grand Inquisitor (yes!) of the Roman Catholic Church, he declared that their archives (4,500 large volumes) indicate a death toll of 25 million killed by the Catholic Church for being "heretics." And likely two-thirds of the original volumes are lost.
    That kind of honesty will help relations (though there is no basis for uniting the RCC with Bible-believing Protestant churches).
    [/FONT]


    ================

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #1 BobRyan, May 17, 2013
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  2. BobRyan

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    Since I know the question of "yes but is that extermination in a good way or a bad way" will come up ---

    [FONT=&quot]Lateran IV on extermination
    [/FONT]




    [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]The Fourth Lateran Council[/FONT][FONT=&quot], the council that dogmatized transubstantiation, offered indulgences to those who would "exterminate heretics" and participate in a Crusade. Since this council refers to the RCC's influence over the state (John 19:11), it points to the fact that the state was acting at the command of the RCC. The council declared (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/lat4-c3.html):

    [/FONT]
    Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath. But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff [the Pope], that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action. The same law is to be observed in regard to those
    who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the
    cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land.
    [/FONT]



    --================================




    AS for the word “exterminate” –
    The etymological origins of the word exterminate are found in the Latin word "exterminare,"


    Moneantur autem et inducantur et si necesse fuerit per censuram ecclesiasticam compellantur saeculares potestates, quibuscumque fungantur officiis, ut sicut reputari cupiunt et haberi fideles, it a pro defensione fidei praestent publice iuramentum, quod de terris suae iurisdictioni subiectis universos haereticos ab ecclesia denotatos bona fide pro viribus exterminare studebunt, ita quod amodo quandocumque quis fuerit in potestatem sive spiritualem sive temporalem assumptus, hoc teneatur capitulum iuramento firmare.

    ========================

    Pope Gregory IX, Council Tolosanum, 1229 A.D.:
    "We prohibit laymen possessing copies of the Old and New Testament ... We forbid them most severely to have the above books in the popular vernacular." "'The lords of the districts shall carefully seek out the heretics in dwellings, hovels, and forests, and even their underground retreats shall be entirely wiped out."
    Pope Pius IX, Quanta Cura:
    "Socialism, Communism, clandestine societies, Bible societies... pests of this sort must be destroyed by all means."
     
    #2 BobRyan, May 17, 2013
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  3. BobRyan

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    And Since I know some will doubt that the Bible actually notices the 1260 years of long-ages persecution of the saints.

    =============================



    1. Numbers 14:34. The Israelites will wander for 40 years in the wilderness, one year for every day spent by the spies in Canaan.
    2. Ezekiel 4:5-6. The prophet Ezekiel is commanded to lie on his left side for 390 days, followed by his right side for 40 days, to symbolize the equivalent number of years of punishment on Israel and Judah respectively.
    3. Daniel 9:24-27. This is known as the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks. The majority of scholars do understand the passage to refer to 70 "sevens" or "septets" of years—that is, a total of 490 years.




    [FONT=&quot]Adam Clarke Commentary[/FONT][FONT=&quot] –[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Dan 7:25[/FONT]
    Until a time and times and the dividing of time.
    In prophetic language a time signifies a year; and a prophetic year has a year for each day. Three years and a half (a day standing for a year, as in Daniel 9:24) will amount to one thousand two hundred and sixty years, if we reckon thirty days to each month, as the Jews do.
    If we knew precisely when the papal power began to exert itself in the antichristian way, then we could at once fix the time of its destruction.

    [FONT=&quot]http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/vi...da&chapter=007[/FONT]



    [FONT=&quot]Jamieson Fausset Brown[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Dan 7:25[/FONT]

    The 1260 years of papal misrule in the name of Christ may be represented by three and a half years of open Antichristianity and persecution before the millennium. Witnessing churches may be succeeded by witnessing individuals, the former occupying the longer, the latter the shorter period (Re 11:3). The beginning of the 1260 years is by ELLIOTT set at A.D. 529 or 533, when Justinian's edict acknowledged Pope John II to be head of the Church; by LUTHER, at 606, when Phocas confirmed Justinian's grant. But 752 is the most likely date, when the temporal dominion of the popes began by Pepin's grant to Stephen II (for Zachary, his predecessor's recognition of his title to France), confirmed by Charlemagne. For it was then first that the little horn plucked up three horns, and so became the prolongation of the fourth secular kingdom [NEWTON]. This would bring us down to about A.D. 2000, or the seventh thousand millenary from creation. But CLINTON makes about 1862 the seventh millenary, which may favor the dating from A.D. 529.

    [FONT=&quot]http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/vi...da&chapter=007[/FONT]



    [FONT=&quot]Treasury of Scripture Knowledge[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Dan 7:25[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]a time[/FONT]
    That is, three years and a half, or, reckoning thirty days to a month, 1,260 days, equal to the same number of years in prophetic language; which, dated from the decree of Phocas constituting him the supreme head of the church, A.D. 606, terminated in 1866.
    [FONT=&quot]4:25,32; 12:7,11,12; Revelation 11:2,3; 12:6,14; 13:5,7[/FONT]


    The above sources all agree on the day for year principle in Dan 7 and that it points to the dark ages - of persecution of the saints

    So 69 weeks (day for a year) goes from 457 B.C to 27 AD. And the last week of years from 27A.D. (Baptism of Christ - the anointed one of Daniel 9) to 34 A.D.

     
    #3 BobRyan, May 17, 2013
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  4. Yeshua1

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    revelation a prophecy of future events, so those chapters have yet to even happen as of yet!
     
  5. evangelist-7

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    Satan + sinful man =
    potent combo to fight against God, His Truth, and His saints!

    .
     
  6. BobRyan

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    I see -- so you are saying that if the vision of Daniel 7 were given today - then it would be revelation and so by that definition would not have happened today or in the past.

    And so - since the vision was given in the 6th century B.C. is it all in the future still - or would the future of Dan 7 - in 6th century B.C. include some of our past?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. BobRyan

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    So then those 1260 years persecuting the saints according to Dan 7 --after the fall of the Pagan Roman Empire - and its division into 10 kingdoms (3 of which were destroyed) -- were "a bad thing".

    And not - infallibly correct.

    Then can we also say that whether it is Catholics tormenting and exterminating Anabaptists - or it is Anabaptists tormenting and exterminating Catholics - we condemn all such activity and do not declare it to be infallibly correct.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. evangelist-7

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    Sorry, maybe my general Truth applying to church doctrine doesn't apply here.
    My excuse ... I'm not in the least up on this part of history.

    .
     
  9. Yeshua1

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    Final Kingdom yet to come, as that comes when jesus returns!
     
  10. BobRyan

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    There are a number of historical accounts pointing to the torture, torment, extermination of millions of the saints in the dark ages (let's say 50 million for example over a period of 1260 years -- so 538 A.D - 1798 A.D. for example). Some have noticed that the golden age for the Catholic church was the dark ages for the world.

    the point I am making above is that it would be nice if all - both Catholic and Protestant, evangelical etc could come to the table and say "Hey those were the dark ages - lots of wrong things happened then and all that extermination stuff was just so much crimes-against-humanity that God condemned and so do we all condemn it to this day).

    Saying that and then "moving on" would be nice.

    But what if one group is stack back at first base having to claim that the extermination orders in the dark ages were and still are to be accepted as "infallible".?

    That could pose a problem.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. Melanie

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    .....it is awfully difficult to figure out when a persecution is.....afterall Christians are being persecuted right now.....:tear:

    and what do you mean by infallible in the context of the thread title?
     
  12. BobRyan

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    First would you agree then that the extermination torment and torture of those with dissenting views of the tradition (Protestants for example)
    is a huge mistake?

    What then of the infallible call for extermination - that you find in the ecumenical council of Lateran IV?

    Even Fr. Ken Ryan of Catholic Digest refers to the actions of wiping out certain groups of Bible believers in the dark ages as an act of "Extermination" when addressing questions raised by the book "Trail of Blood".

    And EWTN's Dr William Carroll states plainly that if Billy Graham had taught what he did in the 20th century - back in the dark ages he would have been burned at the stake.

    Surely there is at least "Some" agreement in this age of enlightenment that these crimes against humanity were not "infallible" and right.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. Yeshua1

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    revelations concerns the GREAt TRIBULATIOn, we ahve NOT had that yet, nor had the Antichrist appear yet!
     
  14. evangelist-7

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    Moving on to what, Bob?
    Naaah, IMO, you've been suckered into the RCC objective of UNITY.
    The Pope has already admitted to, and come against, their atrocities.

    Look, the RCC just wants UNITY ... but only with them as The Head.
    They will never accept anything other than that.
    The coming One-World-Religion, or attempt at it.

    .
     
  15. Yeshua1

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    Finally, you said something that actually made biblical sense!
     
  16. BobRyan

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    In Rev 2 we have the NT church - those who lived while Apostles were still alive - ... turns out that is history.

    But Rev 3 we have the modern day church of Laodicea.

    The historicist model is the one used in Revelation where events all through time - including the future are being mentioned.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. evangelist-7

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    A heads-up ... I'm through dealing with you ... I've had it up to here!
    .
     
  18. Yeshua1

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    Why would that be? is it because i ave exposed you erronous beliefs?
     
  19. BobRyan

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    I hear what you are saying and I get your point clearly.

    But when one says that the Pope is wrong or the RCC is wrong in some way - it is not simply that they come up with the name "Pope" or they call themselves "Catholic" -- that is not the problem at all.

    The problem is in the actual substance of the teaching - it is either right or wrong. If it is not right then it will have real consequences - in real life.

    In the case of Lateran IV and the dark ages - (which is the specific point for this thread) - not ONLY does the call for extermination in Lateran IV give us some hint as to the mechanism for the 1260 years of persecution of the saints in the dark ages - but ALSO the claim that the Lateran IV imperative to "Eterminate" heretics is STILL held to be "infallibly correct" by Catholic leadership.

    This comes as quite a surprise to many who probably "assume" that we are all just "moving on" and not getting stuck in sins and crimes against humanity orchestrated by the Catholic Church in the dark ages. They are missing the point that even when the RCC tries to issue an apology for the things done in the dark ages (1998)- they could not do it because of the problem of infallibility!!

    EWTN's Dr. William Carroll was very clear that in that apology NO specific action of the Catholic church during the dark ages was declared to be wrong as they exterminated heretics.

    In Jesus' day - the Pharisees and Sadducees where bitter enemies - but BOTH of them united in the killing of Christ -- "evil leagues with evil" wherever it exists.

    If we today carry that same spirit of "extermination is infallibly correct against heretics in some cases" we are in spirit joining with them. The persecution of the saints that is coming in the future will not be just a case of some Catholics upset with certain Christians - it will be nearly all denominations Protestant, Catholic, Evangelical buying into the idea of persecution, of extermination, of extraordinary times calling for extraordinary dark-ages measures. If that is the case - should we not now - distance ourselves from such dark-ages name-calling venom-all-day thinking rather than imagining that it could only be employed by the Catholics of the dark ages??

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #19 BobRyan, May 23, 2013
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  20. evangelist-7

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    You can distance yourself all you want ... but Satan is ...
    "the god/ruler of this world/age" (John 12:31, 2 Cor 4:4)
    and the boss doesn't have too many problems accomplishing his goals.

    After all, he deceived the church leaders into heralding cessationism and OSAS, didn't he?
    But, no one wants to know all of the reasons why they went along with him :sleeping_2:

    Hey, blessings Roberto!

    .
     
    #20 evangelist-7, May 23, 2013
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