2 basic questions to all non-Calvinists

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by whetstone, Jun 3, 2005.

  1. whetstone

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    Is prophecy the same thing as foreordination?
    Does God merely predict the future or does He cause the future?
     
  2. icthus

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    _________________________________________________

    Here is the faulty understanding of Calvinism again. When you use "cause", it can only be in the sense of "to bring about, produce", whereas the person who so "causes", is responsible for the actions that follow.

    When you say God "causes the future", you are making God responsible for all events in the world, sine He is the cause of them. This would make man into a something that is carrying out the desires of God, whether good or evil. This then would remove from man any responsibility for his sinful actions. If God is the actual cause of all our sinful actions, then how can He punish us for sinning, since all we are doing, is what He has predetermined that we do?

    Calvinism is wrong to assume that the actions and plans of man, are those predetermined by God. That is, that we cannot do anything that it outside the plan of God. This is very wrong, as our not doing the will of God, is a clear rejection of God's plan for us. This whole system is at fault.
     
  3. BobRyan

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    Not Always.

    In the case of Christ predicting the 2nd coming - it is "fore-ordaining".

    In the case of God warning His people about future failure it is "warning" not ORDAINING sin and failure.

    Ahhhh - "how tough is it to BE God" again??

    This is the realm of Calvinism.

    If one were to BE God where would you draw the line between MAKING the future and warning AGAINST a bad future??

    These are good things for the "little gods" to think about as they perpare for that big day when they will get to sit in the "big chair".

    Ooops -- "no such thing".

    Hence the "proofs" of Calvinism that rely solely on the "innability of man to BE God" are in fact no proofs at all.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. dean198

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    prophecy is not the same as foreordination.
    God neither merely predicts, nor does he cause in an enlightenment philosophy sense. All things work according to his purposes.
     
  5. whetstone

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    The vast majority of prophecy in scripture is God telling man what He will do (i.e. A virgin giving birth, Christ raising again, God's judgement in Revelation). I ask again- is God simply foreseeing the future (like some sort of glorified tarot card reader) or is He making the future happen?

    I agree. God is ultimately responsible for Christ's death. He is ultimately responsible for the presence of sin in the world. He is ultimately responsible for Hitler killing 6 million Jews. Nothing can occur that has not been passed before the throne of grace and allowed by the hand of all wise, all good sovereignty. However, this does not mean God is the active participant in these events- only that He has authored the book of history.

    Now you are thinking Biblically! Good AND evil are actions that God has deemed fit to allow and use for his purposes. Do you really think God is unable to control or even squelch evil without so much as a word? Since evil exists- God must have a purpose for it's existence.

    Not at all. God doesn't actively participate in sin. 'The devil made me do it' doesn't work with God. Joseph's brothers did sinful things. They lied, contemplated murder, and sold their brother into slavery. But Genesis 50:20 says that God meant it for good to save much people. Your view of God and man is very one-sided icthus. You cannot grasp the relationship between predestination and human responsibility- and therefore reject it outright. This is foolishness.

    You must equally answer this question:

    Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    Was Judas responsible for his actions despite being predestined to betray Christ? You have just as much obligation to answer this question as I do (regardless of Calvinism)

    How can anything happen outside of God's ultimate will? Is God powerless? Please explain this conundrum to me with scripture.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by icthus:
    When you say God "causes the future", you are making God responsible for all events in the world, sine He is the cause of them. This would make man into a something that is carrying out the desires of God, whether good or evil.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Is God "learning about sin"??? Is that how He "uses it"??

    Or is the "Data" from sin and rebellion being "evaluated" and studied (Job 1 and 2) by His FREE WILL UNIVERSE and so this "how" it gets used.

    For example in the Job 1 and 2 scenario EVIL is done - but GOD does not DO IT. The idea is OF SATAN according to the text. But God ALLOWS Satan to propose it AND to carry out his wicked evil plan.

    For what purpose?

    So "who" can "learn"??

    Isn't that "FREE WILL" motivated to decide for good - based on EVIDENCE??

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. BobRyan

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    Is Calvinism placing God in the role of "Satan" in Job 1 and 2?
     
  8. whetstone

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    no. calvinism places God on His throne- and the free agents carry out His will. Satan had to ask permission before afflicting Job. So must any other worker of iniquity receive permission before afflicting pain or sin.
     
  9. BobRyan

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    So God is not "causing Satan" to ask the question and to challenge God AND to torment Job?

    God is not MAKING Satan do it?

    God is still sovereign WITHOUT having to MAKE Satan sin and MAKE Satan torture Job??

    Sounds kinda "Arminian".

    On the other hand -- a Calvinist framework for Job would look a lot like this one

    I press the point of “Calvinism taken to its logical conclusion” with John after seeing the post above – and he responds.


    </font>[/QUOTE]In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. OCC

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    "Does God merely predict the future or does He cause the future?" I don't know. I have a question for you:

    Does God cause all kinds of murder, violence, child molestation? Or does He merely know that it will happen?
     
  11. rc

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    God CAUSES all things to happen for the GOOD of those ..... according to HIS calling and purpose....

    Oh... man is soooo gooood.... he doesn't deserve anything "bad" to happen to him.... do you not see the grace of God? If He lifted His hand of grace on this earth and gave us complete free will(hypothetically, without the church's presence) we would all be raping, killing, molesting... Start seeing humans for what they have become after the fall.... EVIL...

    God has lifted His hand of grace OFF of only some in the History of the world and have given them what they desired (free will)... Hitler, Mussolini, Pharaoh, Stalin .... great people...all killed Jews too... what a coinsadance...

    So you ask about rape etc... it's only by God's grace that there is only such a SMALL amount of evil happening, there could be alot more! Either way it is in the control of God.

    Man meant IT for evil but God MEANT IT for Good..

    Study concurrence (compatablism)
     
  12. OCC

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    Hey rc...on this I would agree. God does prevent things from being even worse. But that still doesn't excuse any of it. If God causes all things, then He causes the bad too. This makes God bad...if Calvinism is true. However, I believe that man has free will and that is why evil exists and why God has to "work it out for good" in the first place.

    You misunderstand me. I don't see man as good. But that does not mean Calvinism is true. A man doesn't have to be "good" to hear the gospel and repent. Man not being good does not prove Calvinism.
     
  13. rc

    rc
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    KJ,

    First, Try not thinking so linear. What makes things "evil" is the intentions. There are two intentions in every action. One is man's (evil) BUT there is God's (always good) for the same action.

    A man doesn't have to be "good" to hear the gospel that is true but to understand the gospel is the "ultimate good" choice. If man who can't do good (no man does good not one) how can you attribute him being ABLE to choose the ultimate good? He can not even UNDERSTAND the message that he hears (1 Cor 2:14) To repent means to change ones hearts intentions, but mans intentions are evil ALWAYS. This is the point. A leopard can not change his own spots, neither can a man change his own heart. Ezek 36.26 says it is GOD who changes the heart. This is the antecedent to repentance.
     
  14. webdog

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    --What makes things "evil" is the intentions. There are two intentions in every action. One is man's (evil) BUT there is God's (always good) for the same action.--

    If predestination were true, how could there be two intentions? There only could be one, God's, and that would make God the author of all sin and evil.
     
  15. BobRyan

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    All who are predestined are "predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son" Romans 8.

    Is there another kind of predestination mentioned in scripture?

    As for foreknowledge - God knows ALL (even in Romans 8 contrary to what some Calvinists had hoped).

    IN Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. rc

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    In the CONTEXT Bob, there are specifics. This "specific" group that He forloves - He glorifies. Are all going to be "glorified"?

    You are not being exegetically honest with yourself in order to force your presuppositions upon it. If you want to say Paul meant ALL that God knows (which is everybody in history) than everybody would be predestined,called,justified,glorified. sorry no break in the GOLDEN CHAIN !
     
  17. OCC

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    rc...I can't help but to think so linear. God pre-ordained me that way. I take God at His Word. When He says He loves the world, He means He loves the world. When He says "all", He means "all".

    When He says He "hates" someone I am man enough to admit I don't know what that means. But it sure doesn't mean what Calvinists think because you have to interpret it IN LIGHT of the MANY passages that say He loves THE WORLD.
     
  18. Pastor Larry

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    So you can tell us the meaning of passages that agree with your ideas, and when a passage directly contradicts your ideas, you say it doesn't mean what it says, it has to mean something else. Isn't that backwards? Why would you not take the teaching of Scripture and believe it no matter what it says? Why explain certain parts away?
     
  19. rc

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    Yeah it's called context.

    Did the Roman Empire put a tax on ALL the world?
    Did Mexico get taxed?

    When the Pharisee's said "Look, the WHOLE world follows after Him!" Where the Aborigines there?

    When John the Baptist was baptizing and it said "ALL of Judea was there" was EVERYBODY in Judea there? ....

    Please.... Take a grammar class.

    Any Jew then OR NOW (which I am) understands there is Israel .... and .. THE WORLD. This was VERY common. They were VERY racist and it shown in there speech. The problem is, you don't understand that obviously.
     
  20. OCC

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    rc...more ad hom attacks. Thanks. I don't need a grammar class. I have a very good knowledge of grammar. All does mean all IN context, that context being God desires that ALL would be saved. And I need the grammar class? That is different from the "Romans tax all the world" situation. And you are talking to ME about context? Please.

    So what next...the forgiveness of sins don't really mean the forgiveness of sins? Heaven don't mean heaven? Hell don't mean hell?
     

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