#2 Dispy v. CT

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Ed Edwards, Jan 11, 2005.

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#2 Dispy v. CT

  1. Dispensationalist

    88.5%
  2. Covenant Theology

    11.5%
  3. I don't know or I don't care

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  1. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Which better describes your eschatology?
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    This topic is a continuation of:
    Is Dispensationalism Elitist?

    I was tempted to change it to:
    Is CT (Covenant Theory) Elitist [​IMG]

    The answer to that question would be:
    resounding YES ;)
     
  3. Ed Edwards

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    Trailblazer: "Now, individuals have stated that pre-milliniumism was taught in the early church. The above disproves that untruth CONCLUSIVELY. Pastors cannot any longer teach it from the pulpit or else they will knowingly and willfully be spreading lies. The evidence above cannot be disputed!"

    You might inspect your life for pridefullness :(

    Your understanding of these ECF statemetns does NOT disporve
    dispensationalism. In fact, if i were going to use the ECF to
    show my understanding of pretribualtion rapture/resurrectionism,
    pre-millinnialism, futurism, dispensationalism - i would use
    these very excerpts. And so i shall do, if i ever get a chance
    and/or time to write it up.

    While you think on that, conisder this (posted elsewhere):

    The meaning of "day" in Bible prophecy
    is "the appropriate time. The meaning of
    "hour" in Bible prophecy is "the appropriate
    time. In God's economy 1 day = 1 hour.

    BTW, no dictionary i've ever read tells
    about the 48-hour day (on earth). 48 hours
    is the time that one date (say today's
    date: Monday, 13 Dec 2004) lasts at
    all places on the earth.
     
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Personally i don't teach dispensationalism.
    I just teach a pretribulation
    rapture/resurrection and a pre-millinnial
    Second Coming of Jesus.
    ------------------------------------

    \o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

    \o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

    Five Resurrections
    Found in the Holy Bible
    Compared and Contrasted

    The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

    Definitions:

    New Testament: God's contract on goy
    Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
    Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
    Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
    Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
    --Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
    --Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
    --Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
    Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
    goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogotory)
    Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

    How to get on God's list:

    Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
    shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
    believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
    the dead, thou shalt be saved.



    1. Resurrection of Jesus
    WHO: Jesus
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
    resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
    are possible
    References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


    2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
    WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
    those who believed in God's Messiah
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

    3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
    WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
    of the Old Testament Saints
    WHEN: Some date after 26 May 2004;
    at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
    the Tribulation
    WHERE: Worldwide
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
    this resurrection is followed in but a
    moment by the translation of the living
    saints into a glorified heavenly body like
    that of Jesus
    References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

    4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
    WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
    who reject the Mark of the Beast
    WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
    beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
    References: Revelation 20:4-6,

    5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
    WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
    WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
    at the beginning of eternity
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: i don't know, God does
    HOW: i don't know, God does
    WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
    References: Revelation 20:12-15

    NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
    resurrections above
    does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
    is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
    by his revelation to us or
    by our understaning of His revelation to us.
    For example: Two Witnesses shall
    be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

    There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
    for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
    (numbered here as above):

    2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

    3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

    4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

    5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

    Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
    of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
    resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
    of the unjust).

    The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
    resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
    Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
    in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
    cleary notes that the just are raised one day
    (a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

    CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
    assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
    sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

    May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

    Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
    by a rapture of living saints.

    --compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque
     
  5. rjprince

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    The Olivet Discourse deals with the Trib and the Second Coming to earth. IMHO, Rapture is not present in Matt 24-25 or Luke 21. The taking away is not to reward, but to condemnation. When the flood came, you did not want to be taken, you wanted to be left. When that Abomination of Desolation occurs and AC turns against the Jews, you do not want to be taken, you want to be left.

    On the other hand, when Jesus comes for the church, you do not want to be left, you want to be taken.

    Gotta go make a hospital call. Back later.
     
  6. Ed Edwards

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    Trailblazer: "But do you deny the words of Christ teaching that the resurrection of the just and the unjust will occur ON THE SAME DAY and the destruction of the unjust and the saints go to be with the Lord forever ON THE SAME DAY?"


    I beleive that "the resurrection of the just and the unjust
    will occur ON THE SAME DAY and the destruction of the unjust
    and the saints go to be with the Lord forever ON THE SAME DAY"

    However, i do not understand it the same as you do.
    Consider these two passages:


    2 Peter 3:10 (HCSB = The Holman Christian Standard Bible)

    But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief;
    on that day the heavens will pass away with a loud noise,
    the elements will burn and be dissolved, and the earth
    and the works on it will be disclosed.

    Revelation 20:1-6

    1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key
    to the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
    2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is
    the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years.
    3 He threw him into the abyss, closed it, and put a seal
    on it so that he would no longer deceive the nations until
    the 1,000 years were completed. After that, he must
    be released for a short time.
    4 Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were
    given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those
    who had been beheaded because of their testimony about
    Jesus and because of God's word, who had not worshiped
    the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark
    on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life
    and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.
    5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until
    the 1,000 years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection!
    The second death has no power over these, but they will
    be priests of God and the Messiah, and they will reign
    with Him for 1,000 years.

    Both speak of the same time period.
    One says "day" meaning "the appropriate time".
    One says "1,000 years" meaning "a long time".
    In God's economy 1 day = 1,000 years.
    In God's timing the appropriate time to bind Satan
    is during the literal/physical Millinnial (1,000 years)
    period i like to call the Millinnial Kingdom of Christ.
    But in defference to my Messianic Jewish friends, i'll
    call it the Millinnial Kingdom of Jesus, the Messiah.
     
  7. Ed Edwards

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    Oops [​IMG] I fear our friendly CT
    and the local Dispies are as
    (note the simile)
    a lion in a den of Daniels [​IMG]
     
  8. Ed Edwards

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    Rjprince: "The Olivet Discourse deals with the Trib
    and the Second Coming to earth. IMHO, Rapture is
    not present in Matt 24-25 or Luke 21."

    THis is the most common pretribualtion rapture/resurrection
    teaching. It is NOT my teaching. And you can see why
    i get a bit irritated when people (not Rjprince)
    imply that i am a disciple of John Darby :(

    May God go with Rjprince to the hospital and guide him
    in all wisdom for those matters.
     
  9. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    On the other thread, TB accused me of not believing Jesus. I affirmed in no uncertain terms that I did, to which he responded.

    The answer to this is easy. In Luke 17, Jesus does not deny the pretrib rapture or any other dispensational teachings. I accept his words as applying to what he was talking about, not what you are talking about.

    It is not a "new acceptance." Dispensationalism has always accepted the teaching of Jesus. You know that. You are way over the top in your rhetoric. We disagree about what Jesus was talking about. Accept that, and then we can move on to what he actually said.
     
  10. Ed Edwards

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    Pastor Larry: "In Luke 17, Jesus does not deny the pretrib rapture
    or any other dispensational teachings. I accept his
    words as applying to what he was talking about,
    not what you are talking about."

    Amen Brother Pastor Larry -- Preach it!
     
  11. DeafPosttrib

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    Ed,

    Your questions of poll, I do not answer them. Because I do not agree with both.

    But, Bible does teaching covenant. Notice Bible divided into two parts- Old Testament & New Testament.

    Word 'testament' means promise or covenant.

    The first covenant already fade away (Heb. 8:13), because Christ already make new covenant with many through his own blood by Calvary.

    So, Christ's blood paid cover every saints of both Old Testament period & New Testament period through their faith.

    Abraham's sins already forgiven through Christ's blood by his faith, same as we have faith in Christ. Now Abraham shared of the new covenant through Christ's blood same as we are part of the new covenant - read whole Ephesians 2:12-22 & Galatians chapter 3.

    The purpose of Calvary make both Jews and Gentiles unity together become into one family through Christ at once. There shall be no more divided of Christ's body forever.

    Bible does not teaching us of divided of Christ's body. Such as pretrib teaches 'Tribulation saints' are NOT part of Christ's body. Does the scripture saith according pretrib's teaching on so called, 'tribulation saints'?

    Dispensationalism creates Christ's body into divided, that is conflict with God's Word, because of Calvary's purpose.

    Suppose, you want to visit heaven now, will you see divided family up there?

    Some dispensationalists saying, new covenant is now in process, and will be fulfilled at the second coming for the millennial kingdom. I disagree with them.

    New covenant is already present within us since Calvary 2,000 years ago. You have to accept what the Bible teaching, follow them. The book of Hebrews is very clear teaching on the covenant. Pastor Larry knows that.

    I understand Bible teaching us very clear on the purpose of Calvary, what it is all about.

    Many areas I do agree with Covenant Theology doctrines. Some areas I do not agree with them. I can't remember what areas, they believe. But, I will reply back to you later when I find article of Covenant theology with link, will show them to you, what areas I do not agree with it.

    Not necessary for me being be Covenant Theologian. I understand Bible teaches us about the covenant, because of Calvary's reason with scriptures.

    I will reply back with the link of covenant theology article later, show them, why I do not agree with it.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  12. Pastor Larry

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    This is inaccurate and has been corrected before. Dispensationalism does not divide the body of Christ. There is only one body of Christ, the NT church. The OT nation of Israel is not the body of Christ ... never was ... never will be. Don't keep repeating this false charge.

    Yes, I am familiar with Hebrews since I am preaching through that, and in fact and finishing chapter 7 this week and going to chapter 8 next week. What is interesting about the book of Hebrews is that Hebrews never changes the parties of the NC. It is still the nation of Israel. In fact, an often overlooked fact is that in Hebrews 10, the party of hte NC that is not God is referred to as "them," not "you." That indicates that the author of Hebrews was not applying the NC wholesale to his readers. The NC was applicable to "them" not "you." The church participates in the blessings and provisions of hte NC; we are not a party to the NC per se.
     
  13. James_Newman

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    Lu 17:27
    They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

    The flood did not 'take' anyone. Noah went through the flood. Enoch was taken.

    Ge 5:24
    And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
     
  14. rjprince

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    James,

    I beg to differ.

    Mt 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (KJV)

    Mt 24:39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so shall the coming of the Son of Man be. (NAS)

    Mt 24:39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. (NIV)

    But thanks for helping to make my point -&gt; TAKEN = DESTROYED NOT DELIVERED! Appreciate it.

    THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT WE DISPYS KEEP SAYING! YOU CANNOT JUST LOOK AT ONE PASSAGE, YOU MUST COMPARE SCRIPTURE WITH SCRIPTURE!
     
  15. rjprince

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    James,

    Also, Enoch was taken to Heaven and did not go through the judgment upon the earth. Probably would be a little much to try to force a "type" of the rapture there, I wont.
     
  16. James_Newman

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    Enoch is exactly a type of the rapture. You won't 'force' it because it shows a conditional rapture.

    Heb 11:5
    By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

    That is an interesting point though about the people being taken by the flood. I totally overlooked that in Matthew, thank you for posting it. I think it may make sense of another aspect of the second coming that I have been looking at. I'm not entirely sure that some people may not be cut off at the same time that others are raptured off the earth to escape the tribulation... Taken may not mean the same thing to everyone who gets taken.
     
  17. Grasshopper

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    Speaking of the Olivet Discourse:

    Matt 24: 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
     
  18. Ed Edwards

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    All of Matthew 23:4-14 started happening
    the day after Jesus Ascended and
    have happened continously even until
    11 Jan 2005, today.

    This fact is seen by some to conflict
    with Matthew 24:34.
    The dispensatinalist can explain why;
    the Covenant Theory (CT) has no answer.

    [ January 11, 2005, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: Ed Edwards ]
     
  19. rjprince

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    Grasshopper,

    I already posted Arndt and Gingrich on genea on another thread. Want to see it again?

    Primary meaning is race/family. Check it in a serious lexicon. Try TDNT (Kittel). The Jewish race is still around, in spite of Britanica, Wells and others.
     
  20. Grasshopper

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    Ed, you should know better by now. You really ought to read the writings of your Baptist forefathers.

    John Gill had no problem in answering the question:

    Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass…
    Not the generation of men in general; as if the sense was, that mankind should not cease, until the accomplishment of these things; nor the generation, or people of the Jews, who should continue to be a people, until all were fulfilled; nor the generation of Christians; as if the meaning was, that there should be always a set of Christians, or believers in Christ in the world, until all these events came to pass; but it respects that present age, or generation of men then living in it; and the sense is, that all the men of that age should not die, but some should live till all these things were fulfilled;
    see Matthew 16:28 as many did, and as there is reason to believe they might, and must, since all these things had their accomplishment, in and about forty years after this: and certain it is, that John, one of the disciples of Christ, outlived the time by many years; and, as Dr. Lightfoot observes, many of the Jewish doctors now living, when Christ spoke these words, lived until the city was destroyed; as Rabban Simeon, who perished with it, R. Jochanan ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R. Zadoch, R. Ishmael, and others: this is a full and clear proof, that not anything that is said before, relates to the second coming of Christ, the day of judgment, and end of the world; but that all belong to the coming of the son of man, in the destruction of Jerusalem, and to the end of the Jewish state.

    http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GillsExpositionoftheBible/gil.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024&verse=034&next=035&prev=033

    John Lightfoot had no problem:

    [This generation shall not pass, &c.] Hence it appears plain enough, that the foregoing verses are not to be understood of the last judgment, but, as we said, of the destruction of Jerusalem. There were some among the disciples (particularly John), who lived to see these things come to pass. With Matthew 16:28, compare John 21:22. And there were some Rabbins alive at the time when Christ spoke these things, that lived till the city was destroyed, viz. Rabban Simeon, who perished with the city, R. Jochanan Ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R. Zadoch, R. Ismael, and others.

    Matthew Henry had no problem:

    "This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be fulfilled (v. 34); there are those now alive, that shall see Jerusalem destroyed, and the Jewish church brought to an end.’’ Because it might seem strange, he backs it with a solemn asseveration; "Verily, I say unto you. You may take my word for it, these things are at the door.’’ Christ often speaks of the nearness of that desolation, the more to affect people, and quicken them to prepare for it.

    http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/mhc-com/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024

    The Reformers had no problem: The 1599 Geneva Study Bible

    24:34 Verily I say unto you, This t generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    (t) This age: the word "generation" or "age" is here being used for the men of this age.


    Albert Barnes had no problem:

    Verse 34. This generation, etc. This age; this race of men. A generation is about thirty or forty years. The destruction of Jerusalem took place about forty years after this was spoken.
    http://www.studylight.org/com/bnn/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024


    CH Spurgeon had no problem:
    "The King left his followers in no doubt as to when these things should happen: "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled." It was just about the ordinary limit of a generation when the Roman armies compassed Jerusalem, whose measure of iniquity was then full, and overflowed in misery, agony, distress, and bloodshed such as the world never saw before or since. Jesus was a true Prophet; everything that he foretold was literally fulfilled." (The Gospel of the Kingdom, p.218)

    The Kingly Prophet foretold the time of the end: "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." It was before that generation had passed away that Jerusalem was besieged and destroyed. There was a sufficient interval for the full proclamation of the gospel by the apostles and evangelists of the early Christian Church, and for the gathering out of those who recognized the crucified Christ as their true Messiah. Then came the awful end, which the Savior foresaw and foretold, and the prospect of which wrung from his lips and heart the sorrowful lament that followed his prophecy of the doom awaiting his guilty capital." (in loc.)

    By the way Ed, have you come to a decision on whether the New Heavens and New Earth of Is. 65 &66 are the same as Rev. 21?
     

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