#2 Greek Tenses and OSAS

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Ed Edwards, Nov 18, 2005.

  1. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    This topic is continued from:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/28/3394.html?

    Ascund: // ...

    //There is no counterpoint to the Greek Perfect Tense. No theologian knowledgeable of Greek should be a proponent against the “once saved – always saved” eternal life!

    //A little bit of Greek goes a long way!//

    Amen, Brother Ascund -- Preach it.
    Check out Brother Ascund's Greek posts proving the
    doctrines of OSAS. He has like six points in four posts early
    on page one there.
     
  2. BobRyan

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    Not to burst your bubble -- but from your own link above ...

    ============================================
    Jim responds to Lloyd’s tactics –
    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3394.html#000014

     
  3. BobRyan

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    So that leaves this question for you Ed -- How could you have missed the entire point of the conclusion for that?
     
  4. Ed Edwards

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    Sure thing Ed -

    16 ""For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
    17 ""For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

    Through the sacrifice of Christ - Salvation is for those who believe - which is the point of the text. It can not be twisted or construed to deny Christ's warning in Matt 18 on "Forgiveness revoked" or the warning given in Matt 6 about the father NOT forgiving us if we do not forgive others.

    ...
    </font>[/QUOTE]I really don't have time
    this week-end to find the specific verse
    of //Christ's warning in Matt 18 on "Forgiveness revoked"//

    I really don't have the time this week-end
    that it would take to find //arning given in Matt 6 about the father NOT forgiving us if we do not forgive others//. A specific verse or two
    would be nice. Thank you.

    Recall that NOTHING said in Matthew 18
    nor Matthew 6 will contradict this:

    Romans 8:33-39 (KJV1611 Edition):

    33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge
    of Gods elect? It is God that iustifieth:
    34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ
    that died, yea rather that is risen againe,
    who is euen at the right hand of God,
    who also maketh intercession for vs.
    35 Who shall separate vs from the loue
    of Christ?
    shall tribulation,
    or distresse, or persecution,
    or famine, or nakednesse, or perill, or sword?
    36 (As it is written, for thy sake we
    are killed all the day long, wee are
    accounted as sheepe for the slaughter.)
    37 Nay in all these things wee are more then
    conquerours, through him that loued vs.
    38 For I am perswaded, that neither death,
    nor life, nor angels, nor principalities,
    nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
    39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any
    other creature, shalbe able to
    separate vs from the loue of God, which is in Christ Iesus our Lord.
     
  5. Janosik

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    Ed,

    how do you prove that you believe in Jesus?
     
  6. BobRyan

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    I was thinking you would reply to your OP post snippet from that other thread - and the resolution to that point posted after that.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. BobRyan

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    It is actually 15 verses in the last HALF of chapter 18 where an entire 15 verse parable is told by Christ to illustrate the point of forgiveness revoked in the case of the unforgiving yet forgiven servant of the king.

    Christ ends it with "SO Shall my Father DO TO EACH ONE OF YOU if you do not forgive your brother from your heart".

    I was thinking that Matt 18 was easier to find than what you are saying.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Heb 11:1, 6 (KJV1611):

    Now faith is the substance of things hoped for,
    the euidence of things not seen.
    ...
    6 But without faith it is impossible to please him:
    for hee that commeth to God, must beleeue that he is,
    and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seeke him.
     
  9. Faith alone

    Faith alone
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    Just curious: why was that thread closed and then continued here? ???

    mman said:
    mman,

    I really don't want to hop around covering lightly every text those who hold to conditional assurance can bring to the table. I could simply do the same, but that's not the intent of this thread and will accomplish nothing, in general. All of those "problem texts" can be understood when addressed in context.

    Now notice what I put in bold above? This is not talking about losing eternal life. It is not talking about "entering" the kingdom. It is talking about "inheriting" the kingdom.

    OK, gonna go on with Ephesians 1:13, 14 - but in another post. I posted it and no one has adequately addressed the concept that the Holy Spirit seals us.

    FA
     
  10. Faith alone

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    Now someone (sorry, forgot who) said that a seal can be broken by the person sealed. But that is not how it is used here in Ephesians 1:13, 14

    Following is a word study I did for a Greek class... to teach us how to go about proper Greek word studies... we needed to consider all of the lexical meanings of a word - at the time I was using BGAD (Bauer, Gingrich & Danker - lexicon of NT & other early Christian literature). We were supposed to find examples in the NT (as well as perhaps other koine Greek sources), classical Greek, the LXX, and specifically uses by Paul himself concerning Eph. 1:13. This particular Greek word is only used 3 times in the Greek NT in reference to the sealing of the Holy Spirit, so that makes it very convenient for an indepth study.. And those 3 parallel uses should receive special emphasis, of course, because of a topical context. We were also to consider other letters written by the author (Paul) and any related "sister" books (Colossians - which was not applicable in this instance) in which the word was used.

    sfragizw, SFRAGIZO - "to seal"

    General Notes from Lexicons and study aids:

    Bauer-Gingrich-Danker (BGAD):
    lit.-&gt; With the accusative. of the object that is to be secured or fastened by the seal: of a stone, to prevent its being moved from position (Dan. 6:18; Matt. 27:66; GP 934 - refers back to the sealing of the stone used to close the tomb (832ff). In the case of a closed building, so that it cannot be opened. Rev 203 He sealed the closed mouth of the abyss over him.
    fig.-&gt; a: Seal up something in order to keep it secret (Job 14:17; 24:16; Dan. 9:24, 12:9; Rev. 10:4, 22:10)
    b: Mark with a seal as a means of identification, so that the mark which denotes ownership also carries with it the protection of the owner. Rev. 7:3... marking with a seal on the forehead in cults. Sealing eschatologically—Ezek. 9:4ff; Isa. 44:5) This forms the basis for understanding the symbolic expression which speaks of those who enter the Christian fellowship as being sealed with or by the Holy Spirit (me: or in) Eph. 1:13, 4:30 2 Corin. 1:22 -&gt; here obviously means more than just providing with a mark of identification, but rather “endue with power from heaven,” as plainly in John 6:27. Can also be associated with baptism.
    c: Attest, certify, acknowledge (as a seal does on a document: Jer. 39:10ff; Esth. 8:8,10)
    d: Rom. 15:28 is perhaps to be understand from the practice of sealing sacks of grain, but this is perhaps rather hard to maintain, since the ‘fruit’ must not only be sealed, but also forwarded to Jerusalem and delivered there.

    Moulton-Geden (A Greek grammar used for the class):
    Seal. “if you come, take out 6 artabae of vegetable-seed, sealing it in the sacks in order that they may be ready.” Clear confirmation... Rom 15:25 we understand Paul’s karpon sfragizesqai to mean the proper steps had been taken w/ regard to the collection. “If the fruit is sealed, then everything is in order: the sealing is the last thing that must be done prior to delivery.” There is a reference to the embarkation upon a government transport of a quantity of corn, instructions are given that the shipmaster is to write a receipt, and further -- deigma sfragisas[q]w... “let him seal a sample,” to prevent the corn from being tampered with during transit.
    Other-&gt; “A box of dates and grapes under seal...”
    “I gave the letter sealed on the 12th together...it was sealed with white clay” or “Serenion took the papyrus sealed,”
    “The order for Ptolemais sealed as he gave it to me”
    From the idea of “sealing for security,” it is easy to transition to “seal up, hide, conceal” as in Rev. 10:4 Again to “distinguish” or “mark” as in “send the ass to be branded”... & from this to “confirm, authenticate (an animal for sacrifice, e.g.)
    Sealing was also seen as a means of protecting against falsification of written documents.

    Examples of each of the periods:

    Classical:
    “... the order for Ptolemais sealed as he gave it to me” (earlier—inside the brown tunic, sealed with white clay”
    We can see a clear indication in classical Greek of sealing for security, as well as an idea that probably soon developed of sealing for protection during a trip.

    Koine:
    “Send the ass to be branded”, and from this again it included to “confirm, authenticate” where certification regards an animal for sacrifice.
    The idea of sealing up made a transition to “distinguish,” or “mark”... or “brand”, as in the case of the ass above. The purpose for branding in this case was to certify that the animal was ready for sacrifice... not the ownership idea we have from 19th century westerns.

    LXX (Greek Septuagint - Greek translation of OT):
    The classical idea in the example mentioned above regarding sealing with white clay applies for the LXX also. Jer. 32:11 gives us a good example of its use in general:
    “Then I took the deeds of purchase, both the sealed copy of the terms and conditions, and the open copy...” Here the dealing clearly authenticates or certifies a document.

    NT (In General):
    In Matt. 27:65 and 66 we have an example of the 5th definition above:
    “having sealed the stone with the guard.”
    The idea of preventing any tampering is clearly here as well. However, we are not looking at preserving fruit, but enclosing or closing something with a seal (in this case, a sealed rock).

    Paul:
    Rom. 15:28 is sometimes taken (as with M-M) to refer to ensuring a shipment is secure and no tampering has occurred. As they put it, “everything is in order: the sealing is the last thing which must be done prior to delivery.” Clearly from the context the fruit refers to the contribution to the saints made by those from Macedonia. I see it as referring to the first definition also. However, Paul in 2 Cor. 1:22 and the two Ephesian passages seems to refer to sealing an article (us) to show that it is pledged. In Eph. 1:13 we see the Holy Spirit as our pledge guaranteeing our inheritance (or “until the day of redemption” as in 4:30). There is also the idea of protection, and certification as in definitions 1 and 3, but definition 4 seems to be Paul’s primary focus.

    I found 5 definitions (some closely related) or ways that this term was used:

    Definition 1: To ensure safety during shipment, so that you can tell if someone tampered with it. It has not so much to do with ownership, but tampering Sacks of grain or fruit were sealed in order to preserve them. This definition may be questionable (according to L-S, but not Moulton-Geden).
    Definition 2: To mark or brand with a seal as a means of identification. so that the mark which denotes ownership also carries with it the protection of the owner (also associated with baptism). It was also a way to protect against falsification.
    Definition 3: To attest, certify, acknowledge (as a seal does on a document or object). To testify, confirm or authenticate.
    Definition 4: To seal an article to show that it is pledged.
    Definition 5: To close/enclose with a seal, showing intent to keep something secret.

    Classical 1st defn. - perhaps. 3rd defn. - definitely 4th defn. possibly, L-S is not clear.
    Herodotus (V BC) - 3rd defn.
    Aristotle (IV BC) - 4th defn.

    Koine 1st defn., 2nd defn. (L.S.), 3rd defn.
    M-M unreadable ref. - 2nd
    Hib 1 3915 - 1st defn.
    BGU 1 2043 (BC 28) - 3rd defn.
    Edd III 9810 - 1st defn., 3rd defn.
    Edd VI 929 13 - 1st defn., 3rd defn.
    Chrest I 895 (AD149) - 3rd defn.

    LXX 1st defn., 3rd defn., 5th defn.
    Deut. 32:34 - 1st defn., 3rd defn.
    1 Kings 21:8 - 3rd defn.
    Nehem. 10:1 - 3rd defn.
    Job 14:17 - 1st defn., 5th defn.
    Isa. 8:16 - 1st defn., 5th defn.
    Jer. 32:11 - 2nd defn.

    NT 1st defn. - L-S = No ?, 2nd defn. - L-S=No ?, 3rd defn., 4th defn. - L-S=No, 5th defn.
    Matt. 27:65,66 - 1st defn.
    John 3:33 - 3rd defn.
    John 6:27 - 1st defn., 3rd defn.
    Rev. 7:3-7, 8 - 2nd defn.
    Rev. 10:4 - 5th defn.
    Rev. 20:3 - 1st defn.
    Rev. 22:10 - 5th defn.

    Paul - 1st defn., 3rd defn., 4th defn.
    Rom. 15:28 - 1st defn., 3rd defn.
    2 Corin. 1:22 - 4th defn.

    Sister Bk. (Col.) N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A

    Book (Eph.) - 1st defn., 4th defn.
    Eph. 1:13 - 4th defn.
    Eph. 4:30 - 1st defn.

    -----

    NOTES: Purpose Type of thing sealed
    Eph. 1:13 esfragisqhte 1AorPassInd 2p./pl preserve, protect us
    “In which (Whom) you also, having heard the Word of truth, the gospel of our salvation, in Whom (which) also having believed you were sealed by (in) the Holy Spirit of Promise, Who (which) is a pledge of our inheritance...” - 4th Definition fits best.

    Same Book:
    Eph. 4:30 esfragisqhte 1AorPassInd 2/Pl ensure we will be protected/ until that Day us
    “H.S...., by Whom you were sealed to [the] day of redemption.” - 1st Definition firts best.


    The ideas coming out in Ephesians seems to include the concept of protection or preservation until that Day, as well as the concept of the Holy Spirit being a pledge showing that we belong to God.


    Paul:
    Rom. 15:28 sfragizamenoV Nom M/S 1AorMidPtc preserve and to show that it is pledged fruit (contribution - from saints)
    “Now after I have finished this and have sealed this fruit of theirs, I...” - 3rd and 1st Definition

    2 Corin. 1:22 sfragizamenoV Nom M/S 1AorMidPtc to preserve/protect us
    “Who also having sealed us and gave (having given) [us] the pledge of the Spirit in our hearts.” - 4th definition

    The concepts which come out in the only other two places Paul uses this term are again the idea of receiving the Holy Spirit as a pledge showing that we belong to God, as well as well as the idea of authenticating and protecting against tampering (although fruit/food is not in view here, but a collection of money).

    Rest of the NT: Purpose Type of thing sealed
    Matt. 27:65,66 sqragizontes to seal the stone of the tomb so no tampering would occur stone (but indirectly Christ’s body)
    “having sealed the stone with the guard...”
    5th definition
    John 3:33 sfragise(n) to verify, testify to God witness to God
    “He Who received His witness sealed [this] that God is true.”
    3rd definition
    John 6:27 sfragise(n) certify Christ (by God - Father)
    “...for Him the Father sealed, [even] God”
    3rd definition

    Rev. 7:3-5, 8 spragizmenai(oi) Nom F(M)/Pl PerfPassPtc to mark/identify the servants of God - tribulation people (believers) ...until we have sealed the servants of our God upon their foreheads” - 2nd definition

    Rev. 10:4 sfragison to hide/preserve the prophecy until the proper time words of the prophecy
    “to hide...” the idea of preserving the prophecy until time comes through.
    5th definition

    Rev. 20:3 esfragisen 1AorActInd 3/S to keep Satan in bondage for 1000 years Satan [“lid” sealed] - 1st definition although an argument could be made for the 5th definition

    Rev. 22:10 sfragishV to keep hidden the prophecy until the correct time words of the prophecy - 5th definition

    The usage in the rest of the NT seems to include many ideas. The stone was sealed to prevent tampering, and an argument could be made that it was hiding what was inside. Documents in general were not in view here, as well as in Paul’s writings, but it apparently had become common to refer to objects for sealing. The concepts of certification/authentication and protection against tampering seem to be in view often. John employs the concept of hiding and marking/branding in Revelation. This concept is not clearly in view in other locations in the NT, including Paul, although it’s idea may have been implicit in those days.


    LXX:
    Deut. 32:34 1AorMidInd 3/S to identify or certify documents
    “...and sealed them (documents) with his seal.”
    3rd definition
    Neh. 10:1 to certify or identify a document
    “Now on the sealed document were...”
    3rd definition
    Job 14:17 1AorActInd 2/S to isolate or hide sins
    “You sealed my transgressions up in a bag and you wrap up my iniquity”
    5th and 1st definition
    Isa. 8:16 Nom M/Pl 1AorMidPtc to preserve (hide) until ready to reveal law
    “Bind up the testimony, the sealed law to be manifest.”
    5th definition
    Jer. 32:11 to preserve and protect against falsifying a document
    “Then I took the deeds of purchase, both the sealed copy of the terms and conditions, and the open copy...”
    2nd definition


    It is clear from the above specific classifications that the LXX used the 5th and 3rd definitions often. Although a document was often in view concerning the sealing, other more metaphysical concepts were also used (sins, the law). The 1st and 2nd definitions were also used.


    Koine:
    I saw no references to sealing to show that an article had been pledged outside of NT scripture (Paul) in a Koine time-frame. However, since it was used by Aristotle during earlier classical times, and also by Paul, I would assume that it did have this understanding during Koine times, although it is possible Paul may have resurrected this particular usage. The concepts of protecting against tampering and certifying/authenticating are prevalent. Edd. and BGU used the concept of certifying/authenticating. The concept of sealing food to protect against spoiling, and sealing it with a signet ring to protect against tampering does not seem to be the original concepts, but it was very prevalent during Koine times, as seen in BGU I. 24833. It’s use naturally spread from documents to food, and even began to be used by others to refer to objects. Paul and John employed it to refer to people and metaphysical concepts. However, I did not find evidence of these usages in Koine times. There is also an unreadible reference in M-M to sending an ass for branding in referring to sealing during Koine times, although I do not know how prevalent it was then.


    Classical:
    As mentioned above, Aristotle used sealing to refer to a pledge indicating ownership. It is understandable how this could lead to the idea of the seal as a brand or mark of ownership later. It’s main purpose seemed to be to certify/authenticate.


    Now, could someone please explain how someone can void a work of the Holy Spirit in sealing an individual?

    FA
     
  11. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Faith Alone: //Now, could someone please explain how someone
    can void a work of the Holy Spirit in sealing an individual?//

    Maybe cause that someone is more omnipotent than God is?

    Even my 4-year-old nephew knew:

    (from Vegietales:)

    God is bigger than the boogie man
    Bigger than Godzilla and the monsters on TV
    God is bigger than the boogie man
    And He watches over you and me


    Evidently God is bigger than the "free will" boogie man.
     
  12. Faith alone

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    Thx. And you're so right about John 3:16. Just read it in context.

    Is eternal life mis-named?
    Is God not able to keep His promise that whoever believes in Him has eternal life?

    FA
     
  13. Faith alone

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    Conclusions:
    Now, could someone please explain how someone can void a work of the Holy Spirit in sealing an individual? It is God who seals us. He did the work. His Son died to cover ALL of our sin.

    And after we've talked about the sealing of the Spirit, we can talk about other promises from those verses.

    FA
     
  14. BobRyan

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    It is actually 15 verses in the last HALF of chapter 18 where an entire 15 verse parable is told by Christ to illustrate the point of forgiveness revoked in the case of the unforgiving yet forgiven servant of the king.

    Christ ends it with "SO Shall my Father DO TO EACH ONE OF YOU if you do not forgive your brother from your heart".

    I was thinking that Matt 18 was easier to find than what you are saying.

    In Christ,

    Bob [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]It does no good to challeng God in Matt 18 by saying "Yes Jesus but the sinner in your story would have to be more powerful than God to actaully be unforgiven as you have said".

    It does no good to argue in 1Tim 1 "Yes God - but the shipwreck of faith that results in being turned over to satan - can only happen if we are more powerful than God - since we are sealed".

    It does no good to argue in 2Tim 2 "Oh No God! You could never deny us after having sealed us. For that to happen - we would have to be more powerful than God"!

    And Yet Ed is making that very argument!!

    How can that be??

    How much better it would have been to simply address the inconvenient texts that refute OSAS.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. BobRyan

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    It is one thing to "imagine" that once saved we are always saved - and even to bend some texts to the point of "inferring" that meaning out of them --

    It is quite another thing to actually ADDRESSS the texts that SHOW "Forgiveness REVOKED" Matt 18 last half and "FALLEN From GRACE" and "Christ will DENY those that deny Him" 2Tim 2 and "the SHIPWRECK of Faith" 1Tim 1 etc.

    Finding endless ways to avoid the texts that refute OSAS - does not solve the problem for OSAS.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

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    The seal of the Holy Spirit is not a branding iron removing free will (as some like to infer).

    The seal of the Holy Spirit is the pledge given of eternal life to those that "persevere".

    The Bible is very very clear on the relationship between persevering and obtaining the goal - the prize of eternal life. It is too late to pretend these texts do not exist.

    The striving involved in perseverance –

    This shows forgiveness of former sins in the purification of justification and sanctification. It does not show a cart blanch covering for all future sins. (We just saw this in James 5 above)

    These texts also do not describe a defacto “drift into heaven”.

    But rather a “pressing on” as in Phil 3 and a “buffeting” as in 1Cor 9.

    The OSAS doctrine guts the very core of the “motivation” we see in 1Cor 9 as Paul EXPLICITLY says “LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I MYSELF should be disqualified”. OSAS goes after that point – directly, explicitly and without remorse.


    "Take pains with these things" -- why?

    Paul shows himself doing this very thing “in order that I may lay hold of that for which I was laid hold of by Christ”

    And the prize is explicitly stated by Paul “ gain Christ” and “attain to the resurrection from the dead” – not that I have already obtained it.

    How can anyone read these clear texts and water them down to “that is just diligent effort for effort’s sake not to actually attain or gain or retain or hold on to anything”??
     
  17. BobRyan

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    Perseverance of the saints is "so obvious" and clear from scripture that BOTH Arminians AND 3 and 5 point Calivnists "get it" --

    ===================================

    The thing that is so amazing about this is that those 5 point Calvinists and Arminians differ so sharply on many other points - that when you see a clear example of a case where BOTH sides AGREE - it is worth taking a look at it!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. BobRyan

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    IMHO - only a 4 point Calvinist and a truly confused Arminian would seek common ground in denying the Bible doctrine of perseverance.

    But now and then you find just such a partnership.
     
  19. Ed Edwards

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    Matthew 10:22b: // ... he that endureth to the end, shalbe saued. //

    This we know is true: If a person endures to the end, they shall
    be saved.

    Which of the following is also true?

    A. If a person endures NOT to the end;
    then they shall be saved.

    B. If a person endures NOT to the end;
    then they shall NOT be saved.

    Note that which does not LOGICALLY follow MIGHT be true but
    needs to be proved otherwise from the Bible somewhere else.
    Note that which is LOGICALLY following from the true
    statement above - it need not be further proved, logic
    itself is enough to show its truth.

    As for the C&A conflict, here is my take:
    Calvin explained our salvation as seen by God.
    Arminus explained our salvation as we see it.
     
  20. BobRyan

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    I am just pointing out that the Bible is written "to us" not "to God" and the warnings about our failing to persevere are warnings "to us" and they come "from God".

    I agree that Arminius is taking a position that is from the saint's POV and not as God.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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