2 Misconceptions

4study,

Whoa! Being derived righteousness simply means it originated in a source outside of Adam.

We know Adam's righteousness wasn't intrinsic (belonging to his essential nature), because, for one thing, it was necessary for God to teach Adam what behaviour was required of him. Adam's obedience was not an "automatic" characteristic. Furthermore, it was possible for Adam to disobey.

Nor was Adam's righteousness imputed because in his unfallen state there was no unrighteousness that required righteousness be imputed to him.

I believe he was, although I would quibble with the phrase "once received." I believe Adam's righteousness was maintained as long as he stayed in communion with God. His remaining righteous depended upon his relationship with God.

Adam was in a position where he could have not sinned, but he was not in a state where it was impossible for him to sin.

Was it inevitable that Adam would sin? I think so. Was it necessary for Adam to sin? Absolutely not.

 

Even the Angel of Light, Lucifer, who became Satan sinned in the presence of God Almighty, and was thereby cast down from heaven to this world where he has been the prince of the powers of the air for a very long time and has gained many wiles with which to deceive mankind.

It is foolish to consider that the Fall of satan and the fall of man occured on the same earth day. There is no eternal timeline that tells us on stardate 0006, Satan attempted a coup in Heaven but was defeated and sent to earth where he caused Adam and Eve to disobey God. The deception could have been a million earth years after Satan's fall from heaven. We simply have no assurance of time that long ago, and no assurance of how long in earth years, God's creation days are and I do not deny that God does not need a timeclock to accomplish his work.

You certainly cannot blame Adam and Eve for failing to obey God, they had the master deceiver seducing them.

 

This goes farther to remove the responsibility of man for his sin than anything I have heard; including Mr. Pink's argument that dead men can not be responsible.

If satan is responsible and Adam is not, God made a mistake in punishing Adam. Following these arguments through they fall apart. They sound good if you take them at face value; otherwise, they are not Scripturally founded.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

This goes farther to remove the responsibility of man for his sin than anything I have heard; including Mr. Pink's argument that dead men can not be responsible.

If satan is responsible and Adam is not, God made a mistake in punishing Adam. Following these arguments through they fall apart. They sound good if you take them at face value; otherwise, they are not Scripturally founded.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas </font>[/QUOTE]I'm beginning to think Yelsew is from another dimension. Where else would the following reasoning come from?

1. Free will is true because anything else would mean God is not "fair".
2. We are in our current condition where we must "choose" salvation because Adam disobeyed God.
3. If we don't "choose" salvation to get out of our current condition, we'll endure everlasting punishment, the default destiny for our condition.
4. But you can't blame Adam for disobeying God because he was deceived by satan.

 

Well you are once again wrong!

Adam and Eve were deceived by the master deceiver! Thus man is not the originator of Sin. Sin was introduced to man by Satan. The beguiling serpent was cursed by God to be a dust dweller henseforth.

Man sinned! The spiritual connection to God was severed because God is Holy. Holiness cannot coexist with un-holiness.

God banished Adam and Eve from the Garden to prevent them from consuming the fruit of the Tree of Life and thus become ""equal to", or like unto God in Knowledge of Good and Evil, and having eternal life""

Adam lived for a long long time, 930 years, and no doubt had many children, though not all of Adam's children are known.

 

Npetreley,
Assume the role of Adam. You do not know about good and evil, you were not warned against the serpent.

All you had to work with is God's instruction to not eat the fruit of the two trees in the midst of the Garden. You have no other knowledge or awareness.

What would you do? YOU'LD EAT THE FRUIT!

 

is this not enough? Remember scripture says the woman was decieved, the man ate of his own will. Also remember when God confronted the man and woman (who were not responsible) they tried to play that card also.

Adam conveniently blamed Eve and she conveniently blamed the serpent, God held each responsible.

Also remember that Adam had made a covering of fig leaves by his own power and will to cover the nakedness of his wife and self; neither was this acceptable to God; so he showed Adam the way to Him through sacrifice and provided coats of skin from the only innocent party involved--the propitiation.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

By the way, this is the same thing God and Christ did at Calvary. God taught it to Adam and Adam taught it to his own sons, some believed and approached God this way, others did not believe and brought the works of their own hand. The example in the Bible are Abel and Cain respectively.

The point is only God can provide a covering--which by the way means atone, atonement--and only the thread of blood leading to Christ began here with this first revelation of our father Adam in the Garden of Eden.

 

' . . . most conceptualize God as being unfair . . . '

Not only most but God Himself views this as being against His Divine attributes of unlimited and proffered love, mercy, justice and grace. Sorry, it is not even near a close fit.

 

Well you are once again wrong!

Adam and Eve were deceived by the master deceiver! Thus man is not the originator of Sin. Sin was introduced to man by Satan. The beguiling serpent was cursed by God to be a dust dweller henseforth.

Man sinned! The spiritual connection to God was severed because God is Holy. Holiness cannot coexist with un-holiness.

God banished Adam and Eve from the Garden to prevent them from consuming the fruit of the Tree of Life and thus become ""equal to", or like unto God in Knowledge of Good and Evil, and having eternal life""

Adam lived for a long long time, 930 years, and no doubt had many children, though not all of Adam's children are known. </font>[/QUOTE]Well you are once again wrong

"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." 1 Tim. 2.14

Is this missing from your version? In my Bible this is in line with Gen. 3.6.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

Nothing missing!

Adam was deceived through Eve who was first deceived by the Serpent. If Eve had not eaten of the fruit, she would not have convinced Adam that it was OK for him. Being deceived is not the sin, acting on the deception is!

 

So you are going to throw out 1 Tim. 2.14 where it says Adam was not deceived? By his will Adam reasoned that Eve did not die (no evidence of physical death; which is our problem we focus on the physical, the natural and that is what immediately died in Adam) The flesh was brought into death also, but after the processes of life.

God banished man from the presence of the tree of life to prevent his eating (also of his will) and living forever in this fallen state.

If your version does not include 1 Tim. 2.14 then it is missing.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

Of course the genesis account shows that the woman was first deceived, and did eat first of the forbidden fruit. If Adam would have been on the scene during the deception of Eve, would Adam have stopped her? Speculate all you want, the deception was strong and both sinned. So it matters little whether Adam fell for the Serpent's deception or from Eve's complicity.

2 Tim 2:14 has no bearing at all on the facts! Paul uses that argument to justify his edict that women should not be pastors, and teachers of men. Which the Baptists adhere to as if it were the 12th commandment of God.

 

Yelsew,

So now you disregard scripture because you believe Paul to be prejudiced?

It is evident why you do not associate with any body of believers.


bro. Dallas

 

No Frogman, I reject your use of that same scripture, the manner of which was to prove your point that Adam was not Deceived. It don't wash!

The important fact is that BOTH Eve and Adam sinned by eating of the forbidden fruit and thus all of their decendents now have a sin nature.

 

Yes, both Adam and Eve did sin. But Adam was not deceived; if you would read the Bible you would note this. (If you can see it at Genesis then why not 1 Tim. do you fear popular opinion?) Don't.

"and thus all of their decendents now have a sin nature."

Exactly. This is why the arguement that man can choose to believe from his own will is in error. Because the will of man is in bondage to this sin nature.

Perhaps it is speculation. Nevertheless, if Adam had sinned before Eve, it would follow that Eve could offer a "reason" and that being that she was only following after the one who should have been the head over her and guarding her from deception from satan. Why do you think it happened that the woman was deceived and the man chose of his own will to join her in her sin? Do you think satan did not know that Adam was the head of the woman? Do you think satan is politically correct?

Read your more of the Bible and less of humanistic philosophy.

Bro. Dallas

 

Man, whether dead or alive in the spirit believes nothing that is not in his knowledge bank (memory). Hence, "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God".

Until the knowledge is present in the mind of the one who is being called, the call cannot be answered! That is afterall the point of "a call" is it not!

You, as an 'alive spirit', will not believe. and in reality cannot believe, on what is in someone elses mind. I've proven that to you many times here in this Calvinist/Armenian Forum. And there is no way for you to receive what I have in my mind because you have put up filters that prevent you from "hearing" what I am telling you.

That being true, how does God put anything in your mind if not by His Word. How can you answer the call if you do not know you are being called?

 

Yelsew,

The more we discuss things the more you sound Calvinistic. This is exactly what is meant by my saying man can do nothing by his own will except choose sin. Until God makes the call effectual, man cannot hear it, and cannot answer it. When God is determined to save an individual the call is heard because God opens the ears of the individual and the individual is enlightened to his/her condition before God; then they call on the name of the Lord. Until God opens the eye of the blind and the ear of the deaf they remain blind and deaf; if they do pray a prayer and make a confession without God calling this prayer and confession is not effectual. God must be calling, man must hear the call and understand it. Without God providing the light of understanding then man can only understand naturally and can only naturally respond, this results in religious systems and religious man, but not in salvation.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

You get no pleasure from me. Just because Calvin believed some truthes the same that all men believe them is no evidence that one is Calvinist! You put entirely too much credit to Calvin!

 

You spend too much time afraid Calvin may be right.

Still you said

Then because you believe this you claim it to be a universal truth that all men believe.

Bro. Dallas