2 Pet 1:19 an error in the KJV?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by BrianT, Feb 20, 2004.

  1. BrianT

    BrianT
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    This post is mostly for Michelle, but open to others as well. [​IMG]

    In 2 Pet 1:19, the Greek word "phosphoros" appears. This has been translated as "day star" in the KJV, even though the words "day" ("hemera") and "star" ("aster") do not appear in the Greek. This is the only place "phosphorus" appears in the NT, and Thayer's lexicon says the meaning is in the sense of light-bringing. Forgetting Isa 14:12 for the moment (but not for long, for obvious reasons), is translating "phosphoros" as "day star" a mistake in the KJV?
     
  2. Precepts

    Precepts
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    No. II Peter 1:19 is using the metaphor and you know it. Jesus is referred to by Peter as the star that outshines them all, as Venus is the morning star and outshines any other, including Alpha Centauri, why even Mars out shines Alpha Centauri at times.

    Isaiah 14:12 in the KJB is accurate in the kethiv rendering, the qere rendering is subjectively wrong. You should know this.

    The kethiv rendering is ben shachar yalal which means "son of the morning, howling".

    The qere rendering is found in the marginal notes and that's where mv's pick up on calling lucifer the day-star.

    Here's the Masoretic Hebrew and the Jewish Bible:

    יב אֵיךְ נָפַלְתָּ מִשָּׁמַיִם, הֵילֵל בֶּן-שָׁחַר; נִגְדַּעְתָּ לָאָרֶץ, חוֹלֵשׁ עַל-גּוֹיִם.

    12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, that didst cast lots over the nations!

    Note the Jewish reading combines both renderings, and a mistake on top of that.

    Kethiv/accurate/KJB/RIGHT.

    Qere/suppositional/mv's/wrong
     
  3. BrianT

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    I'm asking about translation, not application.

    No, Jesus is referred to by Peter as "phosphoros". The Greek word for star is "aster". I'm asking how "star" ended up in our English translations if "aster" isn't in the Greek.

    Let's stick with discussing 2 Pet 1:19 for the time being. Once we come to an agreement on that, we can apply that concensus and move back to Isa 14:12.
     
  4. skanwmatos

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    Precepts wrote:
    If you believe the translation of the Kethiv is right and the translation of the Qere is wrong, what do you so with the following list of verses where the KJV follows the Qere reading, which you claim is wrong?

    Genesis 24:33
    Genesis 27:3
    Exodus 16:7
    Exodus 37:8
    Exodus 39:4
    Numbers 3:51
    Numbers 12:3
    Numbers 14:36
    Numbers 16:11
    Numbers 21:32
    Numbers 32:7
    Deuteronomy 28:27
    Deuteronomy 28:30
    Joshua 6:9
    Joshua 8:12
    Joshua 8:16
    Joshua 15:63
    Joshua 21:10
    Judges 6:5
    Judges 7:13
    Judges 7:21
    Judges 11:37
    Judges 13:18
    Judges 16:26
    Ruth 2:1
    1 Samuel 4:13
    1 Samuel 5:6
    1 Samuel 5:9
    1 Samuel 5:12
    1 Samuel 6:4
    1 Samuel 6:5
    1 Samuel 13:8
    1 Samuel 17:7
    1 Samuel 17:23
    1 Samuel 17:34
    1 Samuel 20:38
    1 Samuel 27:4
    1 Samuel 30:24
    2 Samuel 3:2
    2 Samuel 3:15
    2 Samuel 3:25
    2 Samuel 6:23
    2 Samuel 11:1
    2 Samuel 12:22
    2 Samuel 13:37
    2 Samuel 15:20
    2 Samuel 15:28
    2 Samuel 16:12
    2 Samuel 17:16
    2 Samuel 18:3
    2 Samuel 19:40
    2 Samuel 20:5
    2 Samuel 20:14
    2 Samuel 20:23
    2 Samuel 20:25
    2 Samuel 21:12
    2 Samuel 21:20
    2 Samuel 22:8
    2 Samuel 22:51
    2 Samuel 23:13
    1 Kings 6:5
    1 Kings 6:6
    1 Kings 6:10
    1 Kings 6:21
    1 Kings 7:23
    1 Kings 22:48
    2 Kings 6:25
    2 Kings 10:27
    2 Kings 12:11
    2 Kings 16:6
    2 Kings 16:18
    2 Kings 17:21
    2 Kings 18:27
    2 Kings 19:23
    2 Kings 19:31
    2 Kings 20:4
    2 Kings 23:10
    2 Kings 24:15
    2 Kings 25:12
    1 Chron 2:55
    1 Chron 9:33
    1 Chron 11:11
    1 Chron 12:15
    1 Chron 15:24
    1 Chron 23:9
    1 Chron 25:1
    1 Chron 26:25
    2 Chron 3:17
    2 Chron 5:13
    2 Chron 7:6
    2 Chron 8:10
    2 Chron 8:18
    2 Chron 11:18
    2 Chron 13:14
    2 Chron 24:27
    2 Chron 26:21
    2 Chron 29:8
    2 Chron 29:28
    2 Chron 34:9
    2 Chron 34:25
    2 Chron 35:3
    2 Chron 35:4
    Ezra 4:4
    Ezra 4:12
    Ezra 6:17
    Ezra 8:14
    Ezra 8:17
    Ezra 10:28
    Ezra 10:44
    Nehemiah 2:13
    Nehemiah 2:15
    Nehemiah 4:13
    Nehemiah 5:7
    Nehemiah 13:16
    Esther 8:13
    Job 6:2
    Job 8:8
    Job 10:20
    Job 15:7
    Job 15:16
    Job 19:29
    Job 20:22
    Job 21:13
    Job 24:4
    Job 24:6
    Job 26:12
    Job 30:13
    Job 30:22
    Job 33:19
    Job 33:21
    Job 39:12
    Job 41:10
    Job 42:10
    Psalms 9:12
    Psalms 9:18
    Psalms 9:20
    Psalms 10:10
    Psalms 10:12
    Psalms 22:16
    Psalms 30:3
    Psalms 49:14
    Psalms 54:5 H
    Psalms 55:15
    Psalms 56:6
    Psalms 59:15
    Psalms 66:7
    Psalms 71:12
    Psalms 72:17
    Psalms 73:2
    Psalms 73:10
    Psalms 74:11
    Psalms 77:11
    Psalms 85:1
    Psalms 89:17
    Psalms 92:15
    Psalms 101:5
    Psalms 119:79
    Psalms 123:4
    Psalms 126:4
    Psalms 129:3
    Psalms 132:12
    Psalms 139:6
    Psalms 140:10
    Psalms 147:19
    Proverbs 1:27
    Proverbs 2:7
    Proverbs 3:34
    Proverbs 4:16
    Proverbs 6:14
    Proverbs 8:35
    Proverbs 11:3
    Proverbs 12:14
    Proverbs 14:21
    Proverbs 15:14
    Proverbs 16:19
    Proverbs 17:13
    Proverbs 17:27
    Proverbs 18:17
    Proverbs 18:19
    Proverbs 20:4
    Proverbs 20:21
    Proverbs 21:9
    Proverbs 21:19
    Proverbs 21:29
    Proverbs 22:3
    Proverbs 22:11
    Proverbs 23:5
    Proverbs 23:29
    Proverbs 23:31
    Proverbs 25:11
    Proverbs 25:24
    Proverbs 26:8
    Proverbs 26:21
    Proverbs 27:15
    Proverbs 27:20
    Proverbs 31:4
    Proverbs 31:27

    And that's just the first half! I can post examples clear through the minor prophets if you want to see them. So, what's the verdict? If the Qere readings are wrong, is the KJV wrong in all of those verses?
     
  5. Precepts

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    Kethiv is translation, qere is application


    5459 fwsforov phosphoros foce-for’-os

    from 5457 and 5342; TDNT-9:310,1293; adj

    AV-day star 1; 1

    1) light bringing, giving light
    2) the planet Venus, the morning star, day star
    3) metaph. Christ

    Would you like the NAS Greek?

    5459. fwsforov phosphoros; from 5457 and 5342; light-bringing, the morning star:—

    NAS-morning star (1).
    Nah. I don't believe we need to hold anything back.

    The "kethiv" got you didn't it? Would you like to "qere" that one?
     
  6. skanwmatos

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    Uh, no, not really. Kethiv means "to be written" and Qere means "to be read." The Kethiv/Qere pairs are examples of the scribes exacting standards when copying a manuscript. Even if they knew it was wrong they still copied the manuscript exactly as it was written, then put a note in the margin, the Qere, indicating how the verse should be read in the public reading in the Synagogue.

    Our problem is to distinguish between true Kethiv/Qere pairs and marginal notes regarding alternate readings or scribal glosses (teaching notes).
     
  7. Precepts

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    Throwing sand aren't you skwanny? the proof is in the difference between Jesus and lucifer, unless you're propigating the russelite false doctrine, are you?

    You have alluded to something totally different in a multitude of verses. By your "understanding" and your consistent contentions, is Jesus this "son of the morning" in Isaiah 14 as the same "daystar" in II Peter 1:19?

    We who hold the AV 1611 KJB understand the difference, why don't you? Oh, that's right, you just like to argue.
     
  8. BrianT

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    Kethiv is translation, qere is application</font>[/QUOTE]Please, get informed about something before posting about it.

    5459 fwsforov phosphoros foce-for’-os

    from 5457 and 5342; TDNT-9:310,1293; adj

    AV-day star 1; 1

    1) light bringing, giving light
    2) the planet Venus, the morning star, day star
    3) metaph. Christ
    </font>[/QUOTE]Do you honestly not get it? Do you really not understand what I'm asking?
     
  9. Precepts

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    Uh, no, not really. Kethiv means "to be written" and Qere means "to be read." The Kethiv/Qere pairs are examples of the scribes exacting standards when copying a manuscript. Even if they knew it was wrong they still copied the manuscript exactly as it was written, then put a note in the margin, the Qere, indicating how the verse should be read in the public reading in the Synagogue.

    Our problem is to distinguish between true Kethiv/Qere pairs and marginal notes regarding alternate readings or scribal glosses (teaching notes).
    </font>[/QUOTE]Exactly. But when the qere is solely relied upon and smacks in the face of the kethiv is where the mistakes are made. You know this. So does Brian.

    We cannot say the mv's are qere in that respect, they alter the kethiv, you know that too. So does Brian. I saiah 14 and II Peter 1:19 are the proof of that in the mv's, but you don't find that in the AV 1611 KJB ! [​IMG]
     
  10. BrianT

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    Precepts, I stopped responding to you for over a week, because you were largely incoherent, totally inconsistent, factually confused, and generally insulting. The last day or two, I've tried responding to you again. I will not make that mistake again.
     
  11. skanwmatos

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    No, I am pointing out your error.
    Why must you get nasty and make false accusations? Everybody knows that Jesus is not Satan. But what you seem confused about is what the Hebrew says and how it can or should be translated. The connection between Lucifer and Jesus is a figment of your own mind, not of the clear statement of scripture. Try as you like, you cannot deny the Latin word translated Lucifer was used of Venus, also called the morning star.
    No, I have asked you if your charge of the Qere being wrong is correct then do you say the KJV is wrong every time it favors the Qere over the Kethiv?
    That connection exists only in your own mind, not in the text of the bible nor any translation.
    I do understand the difference, but, unlike you, I also don't make my interpretation out to be the inspired word of God as you seem to be doing. You don't understand what the verse is referring to and jump to a wrong conclusion then accuse everyone else of being wrong because of your error of understanding.

    Now, answer my question. If the Qere is wrong, then is the KJV wrong every time it favors the Qere over the Kethiv?
     
  12. Precepts

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    How can I? You keep using deceptive practices and are not willing tio include all the facts. You have alluded to "aster" meaning "star" but we know "phosphoros" means "daystar". Just like "daystar" is referring to Venus and "aster" is only referring to any star.

    Now what is it you think I don't understand? I believe you want everyone to think only you understand what you're asking, but then....
     
  13. Precepts

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    [​IMG] You just can't fool me like you have others, that's it. Now don't make yourself the liar, again.

    I also ignored you for the last day, not two, I was in SC for two days. But I definitely haven't ever been to the same planet
    you've been visiting so often.

    But when you came up with this, I couldn't help but show you your error. So, is "son of the morning" the same as "daystar"? No. Just as lucifer is not Jesus Christ. Oh, and for you who might think they're brothers, get real, like really saved!
     
  14. skanwmatos

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    And I posted about 150 examples of where the KJV "solely relied upon and smacks in the face of the kethiv" which you claim is an error. And I can post about 150 more examples of where the KJV "solely relied upon and smacks in the face of the kethiv" which you claim is an error. If it is error for the mvs to do it why isn't it an error for the KJV to do it?
    Your statement makes absolutely no sense! You say "We cannot say the mv's are qere in that respect" What in the world does that mean? Then you say, "they alter the kethiv." That is the whole point! The Kethiv and Qere are different readings. When the mvs follow the Qere you say that is an error, but when the KJV does exactly the same thing you say it is not an error. Make up your mind!

    I think the problem is that you don't understand what Kathiv/Qere pairs are all about and you are grasping at straws to defend your faulty understanding of a non-existent connection between Lucifer and Christ. :(
     
  15. Orvie

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    You hit the nail on the head. Sadly, he doesn't understand that his precepts are pretext :eek: qs said, "goobly gook geek goble rama sama boo boo" Personally, when I read his posts (any of his 1,000 +), it's like being in a Pentecostal Church hearing them speak in "tongues"...alot of noise, but incoherent. [​IMG] Ah, Precepts, ya just make it all too easy. ;) [​IMG]
     
  16. Orvie

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    [​IMG] You just can't fool me like you have others, that's it. Now don't make yourself the liar, again.

    I also ignored you for the last day, not two, I was in SC for two days. But I definitely haven't ever been to the same planet
    you've been visiting so often.

    But when you came up with this, I couldn't help but show you your error. So, is "son of the morning" the same as "daystar"? No. Just as lucifer is not Jesus Christ. Oh, and for you who might think they're brothers, get real, like really saved!
    </font>[/QUOTE]Translation: blah, blah, blah blah...
     
  17. Precepts

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    No. You cannot use error to point out what you say is error. I have shown Brian his error and the error in the mv's by using the qere rendering in a contradiction to the kethiv, you know that. The KJB translators saw the error of the scribes in the qere, uh, by the kethiv, in regards to Isaiah 14. You tried to use the general sense of the two and I have shown the particular use of the qere in this one verse to be error.

    Then we'll just have to agree the Latin is altogether wrong in this particular instance.
    Then let me answer you again and see if you get it this time: :rolleyes:
    Funny, very funny. All other versions from what I've seen use "morning star" in II Peter 1:19 which is defined as lucifer, but we know the "daystar" to be Christ Jesus as in our AV 1611 KJB as the Greek word phosphoros is accurately defined w/o any contradiction, or possibility of a contradiction, but that just isn't the case with the mv's now is it?

    AV 1611 KJB / Superiority, plain and simple. I do appreciate the "prompting" to study this out though, because I love to point out error on the behalf of mv's, especially using the mv advocates tools against them.
     
  18. Precepts

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    Yeah, orvie, like you translated I Corinthians 14:9 for us :rolleyes:
     
  19. Precepts

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    And I posted about 150 examples of where the KJV "solely relied upon and smacks in the face of the kethiv" which you claim is an error. And I can post about 150 more examples of where the KJV "solely relied upon and smacks in the face of the kethiv" which you claim is an error. If it is error for the mvs to do it why isn't it an error for the KJV to do it?
    Your statement makes absolutely no sense! You say "We cannot say the mv's are qere in that respect" What in the world does that mean? Then you say, "they alter the kethiv." That is the whole point! The Kethiv and Qere are different readings. When the mvs follow the Qere you say that is an error, but when the KJV does exactly the same thing you say it is not an error. Make up your mind!

    I think the problem is that you don't understand what Kathiv/Qere pairs are all about and you are grasping at straws to defend your faulty understanding of a non-existent connection between Lucifer and Christ. :(
    </font>[/QUOTE]You got anything else you'd like to add to the Bible?

    I use specifics, you accuse generally, Hmm? like you're shooting at the moon wouldn'tcha say?
     
  20. Orvie

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    Dictionary qs Edition:
    "error"-"qs forces the English to fit no matter what, and if thou darest to disagree you are in error"
    "mv's"-"The erroneous initials of qs's fav version, i.e. MY Version." aka KJV:kjv
    "mv advocates"- "people who disagree w/ MY Version. aka those who don't believe God has pickled His Word in one single English version.
    "qs posts"- blah, blah, blah, blah...
    anywhere near close? [​IMG]
     

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