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2 Pet 1:19 an error in the KJV?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by BrianT, Feb 20, 2004.

  1. Precepts

    Precepts New Member

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    O.K., Shoot, the door's open. We know the word "daystar" is referring to Jesus.
     
  2. timothy 1769

    timothy 1769 New Member

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    O.K., Shoot, the door's open. We know the word "daystar" is referring to Jesus. </font>[/QUOTE]Sounds good to me.
     
  3. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    Hey Timothy. You are correct, and I do not think there is an error in 2 Pet 1:19 in the KJV. The point I was making was that multiple people here (Michelle, Will K, etc.) have said that "morning star" is an error in Isa 14:12 because the individual words for "morning" and "star" are not in the Hebrew. I'm simply pointing out that if that reasoning means "morning star" is a translation error in Isa 14:12 in the NIV, that reasoning also means "day star" is a translation error in 2 Pet 1:19 in the KJV. They can't have it both ways, yet they try anyway. [​IMG]

    skanwmatos said of Precepts:
    I think you give him too much credit. At least one can understand a wall. [​IMG]
     
  4. timothy 1769

    timothy 1769 New Member

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    Hey Timothy. You are correct, and I do not think there is an error in 2 Pet 1:19 in the KJV. The point I was making was that multiple people here (Michelle, Will K, etc.) have said that "morning star" is an error in Isa 14:12 because the individual words for "morning" and "star" are not in the Hebrew. I'm simply pointing out that if that reasoning means "morning star" is a translation error in Isa 14:12 in the NIV, that reasoning also means "day star" is a translation error in 2 Pet 1:19 in the KJV. They can't have </font>[/QUOTE]Hmmm, the term "Lucifer" can refer to Venus too. Apparently Venus, as the morning star, can symbolize both Christ and Satan.

    Does this mean I have to turn in my KJVO membership card along with my secret decoder ring?
     
  5. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    [​IMG] You only need to hand in the decoder ring if you've been using it as an interpretational device, like it appears others have been doing. [​IMG]
     
  6. skanwmatos

    skanwmatos New Member

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    Once again you have shown that you don't know what you are talking about. A Kethiv/Qere pair is simply that. Two words (a pair) that are different but hold the same place in the reading of the text.

    When you say they are not a "pair" because they don't "match" (not the same) you expose your ignorance of the subject. My wife and I are a "pair" (two people, a couple) but we don't "match" (we are not the same). If you are the same as your spouse, you are a sodomite. We are very different, but nevertheless a pair. The same with the Kethiv/Qere pair. The whole point is that they don't match! The are different words holding the same place in the text!
     
  7. Precepts

    Precepts New Member

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    Nice try skwanny, but my wife and i were once two, but now are we no longer twain, but one flesh. We are not a "pair".

    I showed where the Strong's numbering system shows you other wise. I accept it, you need to argue with them about it.
     
  8. skanwmatos

    skanwmatos New Member

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    Why do you accuse others of violating the rules for making light of your screen name then do the same thing yourself? Do you have a double standard? Are you dishonest?
    So, before you were married you were both male but one of you had surgery and now you are one of each? [​IMG] Seriously, you are no longer a pair? You are no longer a couple? Has she divorced you? (If so, I sympathize, but understand.)
    You didn't show anything of the sort. For starters Strong's numbers have nothing to do with Kethiv/Qere pairs. Secondly, Strong's numbers don't even give the Hebrew word in question. Strong only gives roots and stems. Thirdly there is no Kethiv/Qere pair in the verse in question. The only issue of the verse in question is the translation of 'heyel' as "morning star" as the Inspired Hebrew reads or as "Lucifer" as the Roman Catholic Latin Vulgate reads.

    All of your smoke screen is not fooling anyone. "Lucifer" and "morning star" or "star of the morning" all mean exactly the same thing. Lucifer, the morning star, and star of the morning are all ways to refer to the planet Venus, which is being used metaphorically in this verse to refer to an earthy king who thinks more highly of himself than he ought. Sound familiar?
     
  9. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Amen, Skan. Keep driving home the truth no matter what you are called!

    Smoke screens are dissipated by fresh air and clear minds! [​IMG]
     
  10. Precepts

    Precepts New Member

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    My name is Richard, proper. My nick-name is Ricky, not so proper. My screen name was QuickeningSpirit, proper. But I changed it to Precepts, just as proper. One in particular has used "perversioncepts" "pretext", etc.

    I use "skwanny" as a nickname for skanwmatos simply because I thought it "cute", not derogatory and if this is your way of asking me to refrain from the use of the nick-name then so-be-it. But now you introduce inuendos as if i may be dishonest. Why am I not surprised by that?
    I prefer the Biblical mandate over the ecumenical vulgate. No, I don't believe you do understand. You've even gone way out on a limb and suggest I am divorced, no, my wife and I are no longer twain, but one flesh.
    You obviously don't read well. I never said anything in contradiction to the above quote. the problem occurs in II Peter 1:19 when the nkjv and others define "phosphoros" to mean "morning star".

    If 'morning star" in Isaiah 14:12, (which doesn't appear in the KJB) is compared to "morning star" as found in I Peter 1:19 nkjv, are they both the same? That is where the real objection comes in.

    Here is the view with the Strong's numbers:
    12 How art thou fallen &lt;05307&gt; (8804) from heaven &lt;08064&gt;, O Lucifer &lt;01966&gt;, son &lt;01121&gt; of the morning &lt;07837&gt; (8676) &lt;03213&gt; (8685)! how art thou cut down &lt;01438&gt; (8738) to the ground &lt;0776&gt;, which didst weaken &lt;02522&gt; (8802) the nations &lt;01471&gt;!
    Notice the numbers &lt;07837&gt; then (8676) followed by &lt;03213&gt; then to (8685)

    &lt;07837&gt; rxv shachar shakh’-ar

    from 07836; TWOT-2369a; n m

    AV-morning 12, day 6, early 2, dayspring 1, light 1, riseth 1, Shahar 1; 24

    1) dawn
    1a) dawn
    1b) at dawn (as adverb)

    ** This word "shachar" is the kethiv **

    Now follow the instructions on how to use the Strong's use of the numbering system:

    (08676) Qere Readings

    In the Hebrew Bible, the scribes did not alter any text they felt had been copied incorrectly. Rather they noted in the margin what they thought the written text should be. The written variation is called a kethiv and the marginal note is called the qere. Where the translators of the Authorised Version followed the kethiv reading rather than the qere, we indicate the qere reading by the number 08676. For example, in #De 19:6 "blood" is coded as 01818 08676 05315. The translators followed the kethiv reading that has Strong’s number 01818, which means "blood", but the qere reading is Strong’s number 05315, which means "life".

    &lt;03213&gt; lly yalal yaw-lal’

    a primitive root; TWOT-868; v

    AV-howl 29, howlings 1, variant 1; 31

    1) (Hiphil) to howl, wail, make a howling

    ** This word "yalal"/ Hiphil/ helel is the qere**

    I'm sorry if you can't see that, but it is plain as day.

    lucifer is the son of the morning, also the morning star. To refer to Jesus as the morning star is to associate Him with lucifer, the jw's do that, calling Jesus the brother of lucifer. But when we look deeper into the Word of God we find that Jesus is referred to as "the day star" II Peter 1:19 and the "bright and morning star" Revelation 22:16, but never as the "morning star".

    Now maybe if you're a mason that could indicate the problem, they do associate with the "morning star" and we all know that to be lucifer by the rendering of Isaiah 14:12
     
  11. Precepts

    Precepts New Member

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    Oh, and just a note for you and the Doc, the vulgate reads "lucifer" as the "day star" of II Peter 1:19.

    Hey Dr. Bob Griffeth, I don't like typing that long screen name, can i get your permission to call you "Doc" ? I believe i made it quite clear it is not derogatory, just as "skwanny" is not, but I've left that up to skanwmatos to decide for me, but if you think it is, well, then I won't, but then I might, but then i don't mean it derogatory like our friend rsr makes "light" of Precepts. But, Hey! What do I know?
     
  12. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    I want to publicly apologize for my online hectoring. It was unChristian and petty.

    We have nothing to say to each other, so I will leave it at that.
     
  13. Precepts

    Precepts New Member

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    I want to publicly apologize for my online hectoring. It was unChristian and petty.

    We have nothing to say to each other, so I will leave it at that.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Au contraire. If you think for an instant I'm going to let you get away with that, well, O.K. Apology accepted and I apologize too, but I will NOT kiss and make up!

    SMACK! (Precepts has for some reason smacked himself rather profusely at his response to rsr in his apology, we might think it's because he got satiracle again by saying he would not kiss rsr, we believe he should smack himself for even thinking he might have to kiss rsr)
    [​IMG] I mean [​IMG]
     
  14. timothy 1769

    timothy 1769 New Member

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    Behold, the holy kiss! On a Baptist BB, no less. Menno would be proud.
     
  15. Precepts

    Precepts New Member

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    Who's Menno?
     
  16. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows New Member

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    Menno Simons. You're an honorary Mennonite! ;)
     
  17. timothy 1769

    timothy 1769 New Member

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    Menno Simons was a prominent Anabaptist leader in the reformation. Many Mennonites greet one another with the holy kiss because, well, that's exactly what the Bible says we are to do [​IMG]

    SMACK!
     
  18. Precepts

    Precepts New Member

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    O.K. glad to see Menno is Biblically right. I think.
     
  19. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows New Member

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    Hey Bro Ricky,

    "12 How art thou fallen &lt;05307&gt; (8804) from heaven &lt;08064&gt;, O Lucifer &lt;01966&gt;, son &lt;01121&gt; of the morning &lt;07837&gt; (8676) &lt;03213&gt; (8685)! how art thou cut down &lt;01438&gt; (8738) to the ground &lt;0776&gt;, which didst weaken &lt;02522&gt; (8802) the nations &lt;01471&gt;!"

    I think those the &lt;03213&gt; is to show that &lt;07837&gt; is derived from the former. This does not involve a qere/kethiv. Interestingly there are many who think that heylel comes from halal &lt;01984&gt;.

    The Strong's I have doesn't have that 8678. What reference are you using?
     
  20. Precepts

    Precepts New Member

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    The program is the Online Bible Millennium Edition 1.40 the program within it is the "Original Strong's"

    http://www.onlinebible.net/

    You have to have at least the "Millennium Edition 1.0" to download from this site, but there the program can be ordered also.

    The reference shows the kethiv and the qere differences by the numbers, I copied and pasted that info straight from it.
     
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