2 Peter 1:1-11

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Eladar, Feb 27, 2002.

  1. Eladar

    Eladar
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,012
    Likes Received:
    0
    Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

    Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.


    Why is it that we need to make certain of our calling, if it were impossible for someone who believed they were called to fall away?

    Either Paul is writing something totally irrelevent and misleading or there is a need to practice the qualities listed.

    Why the warning if it wasn't needed?
     
  2. Brutus

    Brutus
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2001
    Messages:
    357
    Likes Received:
    0
    tuor;allow me just a little leeway here,since you claim that one can loose their salvation.The question then arises:can that very individual who lost his salvation be saved again?
     
  3. Eladar

    Eladar
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,012
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't know. Jesus asks if salt looses its taste how can it get it back? Hebrews says that anyone who leaves can't come back.

    But there is a difference between rejecting God and commiting sins.

    All I do know is that Peter warns us "to make certain about His calling".

    Why the warning if it's not needed?

    [ February 27, 2002, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: Tuor ]
     
  4. TomVols

    TomVols
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    11,170
    Likes Received:
    0
    We've been through this before, so I'm only going to allow a little latitude here.

    As for this text, Peter calling on his recepients to make sure they are believers and to be certain that their lives match their calling and election. How one extrapolates the loss of salvation out of that is beyond me. This is eisegesis, not exegesis. One passage cannot contradict the warp and woof of Bible teaching that declares boldy and obviously that true believers will always remain true believers. The hones is on those who disbelieve this Biblical doctrine to explain why they jettison a cardinal Scriptural tenet.
     
  5. TomVols

    TomVols
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2000
    Messages:
    11,170
    Likes Received:
    0
    Believing you're called doesn't save you. Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins does.

    No one doubts you need to practice the qualities he lists. You are engaging in non-sequitur.

    Because one of the foundational assurances a believer needs is that he is indeed a believer, that he relies on the gospel of Christ for salvation and nothing else.
     
  6. Kellisa

    Kellisa
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    0
    [

    [ February 27, 2002, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Kellisa ]
     
  7. Kellisa

    Kellisa
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    0
    It's a warning to grow in the grace of the Lord to keep yourself from falling into sin once again, not falling into a lost state. It is a very needed warning for Christians who truly want to serve God and be found faithful in him. Some people may be saved but choose to let worries of this world get them down. Peter is calling for us to be complete in Christ and not just look at temporal things, but remember and have hope in our promise which is to come. Those who have been saved have a desire to serve the Lord, whether they actually practice it faithfully or not are two different things. You assure your salvation by heeding to the word of God and growing in his grace by drawing near unto him. You open yourself up to a lot more doubt and confusion when you choose not to follow your Lord
    He has given us everything that we need to grow in him, but it is up to us personally to grow in him daily by reading his word, praying, and trusting in him daily.
     
  8. Eladar

    Eladar
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,012
    Likes Received:
    0
    Kellisa,

    So you are saying fruits mean nothing? You are saying that Jesus lied when He said that only those who do God's will may enter the kingdom of heaven? If Jesus is speaking the truth, then how we live is important. Jesus says that there are those who worship God in vain. The reason given is that those people's hearts are far from God. Jesus states that our actions are a reflection of our hearts. For this reason our actions, other wise known as fruits, are important and do reflect our state of salvation.

    Paul writes in Galatians 5 that those who live by the flesh will not enter the kingdom of heaven, therefore how we live must be important.

    Peter writes that "if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first."

    Notice that Peter states that these people at one point had knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but fell back into their sin. In doing so, they end up in a worse state than not knowing Jesus at all. Their actions revealed their rebellious hearts. Their fruits reveal the fact that they are not saved.

    One other thing the verse I'm quoting says "Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom"

    Entrance to the kingdom of heaven is talking about salvation.

    [ February 27, 2002, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: Tuor ]
     
  9. Eladar

    Eladar
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,012
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't believe there is a contradiction between true believers(the elect) being sealed and the possibility that each and every one of us might not be of the elect.
     
  10. Brutus

    Brutus
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2001
    Messages:
    357
    Likes Received:
    0
    tuor; when you refer to Hebrews I certainly hope that your reference is not 6:4-6.The author is telling of professed Jewish believers who stop just short of a saving faith in Christ.It is not said in this passage that they had faith.Remember Duet.1:19-26 tells us about the spies at Kadesh-barnea,they saw the land and had the very fruit of it in their hands yet they turned back.So it is with those whom the author of Hebrews is talking about.He is speaking to the unsaved who have heard the truth and even acknowledged it,but hesitated to embrace Christ.Many interpreters hold that this passage teaches that salvation can be lost.If this interpretation were true,however, the passage would also teach that,once lost,salvation could never be regained.If,after being saved,a person lost his salvation,he would be damned forever.There would be no going back and forth,in and out of grace.But Christians are not being addressed,and it is the oportunity for receiving salvation,not salvation itself,that can be lost.The believer need never to fear he will loose his salvation.He cannot. The Bible is absolutely clear about that.Jn.10:27-29;Rom.8:35,38-39;Phil.1:6;1Peter 1:4-5;Rom.5:10;just to name a few references.It is unbelievers that are in danger of losing salvation,in the sense of losing the opportunity ever to receive it.The unbelieving Jews were in great danger,because of their spiritual immaturity and sluggishness,of turning back to Judaism and of never being able to repent and come to Christ.They would be lost forever,because they had rejected,at the most vital point in knowledge and conviction,the only gospel that could save them.There is no other salvation message that they could hear,no evidence of the truth of the gospel they had not seen.They had even heard the apostles preach and had seen them perform signs and wonders and miracles(Heb.2:4).They had seen it all and heard it all.They had even accepted it all intellectually.Any who are so informed,so witnessed to,so blessed with every opportunity to know God's gospel,and who then turn their backs on it,for Judaism or anything else,are eternally lost.They not only reject the gospel,but"crucify to themselves the Son of God,and put Him to open shame."
     
  11. Kellisa

    Kellisa
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    0
    I never said that fruits mean nothing. I most certainly did not say that Jesus lied when he said that only those who do God's will may enter the kingdom of heaven. How we live is very important, but we do not do good works for salvation rather because we are saved. You mentined Galatians, well Galatians also tells us in Chapter 2:16 that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith of Jesus Christ. He later says in Chapter 3:3 "Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" Obviously we cannot maintain salvation by what we do and do not do rather by faith. He tells us that "the law is not of faith: but, the man that doeth them shall live in them." We receive the spirit of the promise through faith as it says in verse 14. You constantly try to twist the Bible to say that unless you do this and that, whatever it may be, that you cannot be sure of your salvation. This is simply not true. If you are a born again believer I don't know why you spend so much time trying to cause doubt in a Christians mind as to whether they are really saved instead of sharing something good from the word of God. Seems to me that you like to pick and choose verses here and there to throw at those who believe in Eternal Security. I personally am tired of it because you exclude so many other verses out of the Bible when others try to present the truth. I know you've already seen them, but here are just a few verses that support Eternal Security throught the New Testament.
    Rom 6:23; Rom 8:38,39; Hebrews 7:25; Eph 4:30; John 10:27-29; Phil 1:6; Rom 8:28-30, 1 John 2:1-3. Those are just a few there are many more througout the Bible.
     
  12. Brutus

    Brutus
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2001
    Messages:
    357
    Likes Received:
    0
    These Jews had come all the way up to the edge of salvation!All the revelation that God had He had given them.There was nothing else He could say or do.If they fell away they did so with an evil heart of unbelief and they did it against full revelation.They had the advantage of having been raised under the Old Covenantand they had heard and seen all the beauty and perfection of the new.If they now fell away from that,if they now departed from the living God,there was no hope that they could ever be restored to the place where the gospel was fresh,where the gospel taste was sweet,where repentance was a proper response.They could never get back there.When one rejects Christ at the peak experience of knowledge and conviction,he will not accept at a lesser level.So salvation becomes impossible. :eek: :eek:
     
  13. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    I guess a good explaination of Tuor salvation description is the type we can label... Yo-Yo Salvation... Saved... Not Saved... Saved... Not Saved... Well you get the picture... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  14. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    If you adopt the once saved always saved Yo-Yo Savation is no problem because you can never fall from grace!... Like the tv program says... Believe it or not!... Brother Glen :cool:
     
  15. Eladar

    Eladar
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,012
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hebrews 6:4-6

    For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

    I believe it does.
     
  16. Kellisa

    Kellisa
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    0
    Tuor,

    I discussed this verse on another thread and it does not say that you can lose your salvation. These are people that have been saved by the blood of Jesus and that if they fall away (from the teaching, out of fellowship with God, not falling from salvation) it impossible to renew them again unto repentance (initial repentance needed for salvation, not repentance from lost fellowship) seeing they crucify the Son of God afresh, and put him to open shame. These people don't need to be saved again, they only need to repent of their sin to have fellowship with God once again. There is no way for them to be saved again because they already are, if you believe you can be saved again you are putting the Son of God to open shame.

    [ February 28, 2002, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: Kellisa ]
     
  17. Eladar

    Eladar
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,012
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you fall away from the teachings of God then you are not saved.

    1 John 2

    Especially look at verses 3-5, 14-17, 19 and 28-29.

    tyndale,

    I'm not too sure there is a possibility of redemption once one rejects Jesus after accepting Him.

    Notice, there is a difference between sinning and rejecting Jesus and choosing to continue in life of open rebellion to God. There is the example of the prodigal son who rejected his father's house, but he never rejected his father. Perhaps rejecting Christ after knowing Christ is the unforgivable sin.

    But of course, if the prodigal son never repented and returned, then he could never return to his father.

    This model fits my understanding to a 't'. We are not saved until we die. Until then, we are still in the race.

    [ February 28, 2002, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: Tuor ]
     
  18. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Messages:
    2,841
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is an old and worn-out topic, nevertheless:

    How does one know they are elect and rest in that assurance?

    John 6:44 (ESV)
    No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

    John 3:3 (ESV)
    Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

    Romans 10:9-13 (ESV)
    because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. [10] For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. [11] For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." [12] For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. [13] For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

    Do you believe in Christ as Lord and Savior? You cannot unless the Father calls, you, regenerates you, and gives you the gifts of repentance and faith. If you have been delivered from the domain of darkness and transferred to the kingdom of his beloved Son (Col. 1:13) you are elect and sure of your salvation. What can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus?

    Nevertheless, the Christian calling is to grow in the faith and make our election sure by sanctification and fruits of the Spirit. These facts - the assurance of faith and the need to live like a Christian - are not antithetical to each other.
     
  19. Eladar

    Eladar
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,012
    Likes Received:
    0
    Chris,

    So your argument is that because the of the way you interpret certain scriptures, these other scriptures can't say what they appear to be saying.

    Perhaps your interpretations and implications based on the scriptures you have posted are in error.
     
  20. Kellisa

    Kellisa
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    0
    Tuor,

    So I guess if you have a child born to you that when that child goes against your word that they cease to be your child. That is rediculous. You mentioned 1 John 2:19, it is not talking about those that were saved and have fallen, it is talking about false teachers who deceived others and made them think they were saved, but obviously there had never been salvation in their lives in the first place. I think you also need to remember that no one is sinless even after salvation, our soul is made perfect but we still live in our flesh which sins. Verse 1 tells us that if we do sin (which we all do, we lie to ourselves if we say we don't) we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ. He is the one who is righteous not us, our good works will never get us to heaven, but that is what you keep trying to say over and over again. We will never perfect the work of Jesus on the cross. He finished it. Tell me exactly what you have to offer God within yourself that will gain you access into heaven. Nothing but accepting his Son, that is the same before salvation and after salvation. We don't add anything to Christ's work.
     

Share This Page

Loading...