2 Peter 2:1 and Limited Atonement

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by aa0310, Feb 12, 2005.

  1. aa0310

    aa0310
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2003
    Messages:
    99
    Likes Received:
    0
    The text reads:

    "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction"

    Here we are told that Jesus "bought" with His own blood, the false prophet, and false teachers, those who teach heresies, and even deny (reject) Jesus Who died for them!

    I am all too aware of the twisting of this Scripture, where it is suggested that "Lord" is not referring to Jesus, since the Greek "Kurios" is not used here! And, that the term "bought", does not refer to Christ dying on the cross! But, these interpretations would be sought by those who simply cannot let the Bible do the speaking, and would have us understand something foreign to the plain meaning of the words!

    We all know that it was the Lord Jesus Who "tasted death for every man", that is, it was Jesus Who died on the cross, NOT God the Father. Unless, of course you believe in the heresy known as "Patripassian", which teaches that the Father also suffered on the cross! If "Lord" does not refer to Jesus in 2 Peter 2:1, then to whom does it refer? The term "bought", is the same one used by Paul in 1 Corinthians 6:20; "For ys were bought with a price...", which none would doubt refers to the death of Jesus Christ. If "bought" does not refer to Jesus' death in the passage in 2 Peter, as almost all the Greek lexicons say it does, then what does it refer to? Without this meaning, the passage does not make any sense. It is the rejection of Jesus as the only Saviour of the world, that has been disputed throughout the time of the Church. And this is exactly what Peter is saying here.

    This verse is very clear testimony to the fact, that Jesus also died even for those who will not finally be in heaven!
     
  2. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Limited atonement doesn't deny that. Limited does not believe less about the atonement. It believes more. It believes that Jesus's death actually saved people, not just made it possible. Again, some study on your part to understand exactly what limited atonement means is in order.

    Here is a good place for you to start: www.reformission.com

    Go to the audio page and listen to part 2 of John Piper's Evening Session on November 9. He will give you a good simple introduction and then you can branch out from there.
     
  3. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Limited Atonement means that the power of the atonement can be targeted. When scripture declares that Jesus' atonement for sin was Once for ALL, nothing can limit it until ALL is achieved. When would that be? Man is foolish who attempts to direct God's atonement to a select group.
     
  4. johnp.

    johnp.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Or when he says that 'all' must include Eli?

    Don't you just love Eli Wes? :cool: You have already agreed to a limited atonement.

    johnp.
     
  5. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Perhaps, but a wierd way of putting it. Limited atonement means that the atonement actually accomplished salvation, not simply made it possible. It is a statement about its efficacy, not its possibility.

    Actually the point of that is not as you take it. The point is that Christ's death was once for all time, meaning there is no more need for a sacrifice. The context of those statements are the OT sacrifices in Hebrews. The author of Hebrews was pointing out that Christ did "once for all" what the OT could never do ... take away sin.

    I would absolutely agree. But since God is the one who has "limited it" then man would be foolish if he did not accept God's teaching on the matter.
     
  6. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    3,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    Interestingly enough, John Calvin, in his many commentaries on the Scriptures makes it pretty clear that he believed that Christ died for all men, everywhere. I'd be interested to see how that theology evolved between Calvin and the Synod of Dort.
     
  7. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Or when he says that 'all' must include Eli?

    Don't you just love Eli Wes? :cool: You have already agreed to a limited atonement.

    johnp.
    </font>[/QUOTE]The house of Eli poses no problem or discomfort for me at all. You however, continue to FAIL to understand that Atonement is for sin and not for people! Provide a reference were one person, the person not his deeds, is atoned for. Do be careful because you must realize that God is no respecter of man, and that by atoning for any man makes God a respecter of that man.

    In every case I've found it is one's sin that is atoned. For what other cause would atonement be necessary?

    The House of Eli rejected God. Atonement indeed covers and covered ALL Sin, including the sins of Eli's house. However, since Eli's house rejected God, it is no different than one today rejecting God. Though the one's sins are atoned, if the one does not have faith in God of which rejection of God is the paramount symptom, that one cannot escape the second death. However, the one can through faith in God, NOT Rejection of God, have eternal life.
     
  8. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
    Perhaps, but a wierd way of putting it. Limited atonement means that the atonement actually accomplished salvation, not simply made it possible. It is a statement about its efficacy, not its possibility.</font>[/QUOTE]Can you give me the name of any one human who has been 'saved by atonement' without the benefit of having faith?
    Actually the point of that is not as you take it. The point is that Christ's death was once for all time, meaning there is no more need for a sacrifice. The context of those statements are the OT sacrifices in Hebrews. The author of Hebrews was pointing out that Christ did "once for all" what the OT could never do ... take away sin.</font>[/QUOTE]You are saying that the Christ DID NOT ATONE for the 'SINS OF THE WORLD' as scriptures declare the case to be. Without total, ONCE for ALL atonement for Sin, You could not have everlasting life NO MATTER HOW STRONG YOUR FAITH. You see, you have no way of proving that you are an "elect of God" covered by the Christ's atonement exclusive of any other human. You are either saved in the same manner that ALL who get saved are, or you do not get saved at all!
    I would absolutely agrees. But since God is the one who has "limited it" then man would be foolish if he did not accept God's teaching on the matter.</font>[/QUOTE]I find nothing in scripture where God has limited the Christ's ATONEMENT FOR SIN! It is only because of your adherance to false teaching that you find it where it does not exist!
     
  9. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    aa0310,

    You are correct in your interpretation at the start of your new topic. Limited Atonement is a clear denial of Christ’s universal love and justice toward all of Adam’s fallen race.

    The Greek scholar, Dr. Kenneth S. Wuest in his volumes called, “In These Last Days” says on page 46 on II Peter 2:1, that Strachan says: ‘The denial seems to have consisted in an inadequate view of the Person and Work of Christ, and their relation to the problem of human sin. Of course, such a person is unsaved . . . . These are not misguided Christians, but heretics. These heretics denied the Lord Who ‘. . . bought them, and brought on themselves swift destruction.’

    The error of Calvinism magnifies even more the miscalculation of denying the sufficiency and substitutionary death of Jesus toward all lost sinners. One could understand the confusion in the minds and hearts of lost souls, but who can figure out why some true believers and some so called Christians who sit in Christian Churches deny the efficiency of Jesus atonement for all of the fallen sons and daughters since Adam and Eve.

    Maybe because of the rearing and spiritual heritage of a son called John Calvin. Dr. Kenneth Scott Latourette in his volume, “A History of Christianity,” said, on page 751:

    ‘John Calvin was reared in aristocratic society and had the manners of that class. He was born on July 10, 1509, at Noyon in Picardy, about sixty miles north east of Paris . . . . Although he was never ordained, the young John was designed by his father for the Church {the Roman Catholic Church} and was educated, as was the custom in those lax days, by the income from ecclesiastical benefices, the duties of which he did not perform.’ Simply stated, John Calvin was educated from the treasury of the Roman Catholic Church, which might cause one to think that his belief system would also be like the findings of the various Popes.

    So the bottom line is that Calvinism has her roots that go very deep in the substrata of theological development and understanding, as far back as St. Augustine. The counterfeit concept of a Limited Atonement and the Effectual Call and other theories can be traced back to the blindness of Roman Church’s false teachers. I will grant you that in the last few hundred years Roman Catholicism has evolved into a more Arminian and Biblical stance.

    Berrian, Th.D.
     
  10. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Most Calvinists agree with this. That has never been much of a problem. Some who don't understand limited atonement have tried to create a problem where none exists. Listen to that section of preaching by John Piper that I referenced. It will help clear up some of the misconceptions.
     
  11. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, why would I? Calvinists don't believe that people are saved without faith. They believe that the atonement was an actual payment, not a possible one.

    No, to the contrary, I am saying that Christ did atone for the sins of the world, just as Scripture declares.

    [qutoe] Without total, ONCE for ALL atonement for Sin, You could not have everlasting life NO MATTER HOW STRONG YOUR FAITH. You see, you have no way of proving that you are an "elect of God" covered by the Christ's atonement exclusive of any other human. You are either saved in the same manner that ALL who get saved are, or you do not get saved at all! [/quote]Spoken like a true died in teh wool Calvinist. You keep this up, you are going to get converted.

    This statement stems from a misunderstanding of the atonement. It was sufficient for all men, and through common grace, all men participate in the blessings of the atonement. It is effectual only for those who believe. Your yourself limit the atonement (unless you are a universalist). Your limits are much like mine. You believe it is limited to those who believe. The thing you cannot account for is why they believe.

    You also have a problem of justice with God. If God punished Christ for the sins of some, and then later sends people to hell for their sins, then he is unjust--requiring a double payment for sin. God is not like that.
     
  12. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't think you have read a thing I've posted over these past many months, because you falsely represent what I've said.
    How do I limit the atonement? Atonement is universal! All Sins are covered by God the Son's Atonement for sin. Like the rain that falls on both good and evil alike, Jesus' Atonement atones for the ALL sins in ALL times. No sin has been left unatoned, save for Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Even the sins of Eli's house have been atoned, but because Eli's house rejected God, which is the same sin as Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, Eli's house was lost forever. You use the terms "common Grace" and "effectual" as if they somehow clarify an already very clear universal and Unilateral act of God.

    The following proves my allegation that you have not read a thing I posted on the topic of Atonement.
    Man does not get punished in Hell for sin! Sin has been paid for by God the son, therefore there is no penalty for man to pay for sin. The Only reason one gets cast into the lake of fire is because he lacks faith in God.
     
  13. aa0310

    aa0310
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2003
    Messages:
    99
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Wes, Outwest

    You wrote
    "Man does not get punished in Hell for sin! Sin has been paid for by God the son, therefore there is no penalty for man to pay for sin. The Only reason one gets cast into the lake of fire is because he lacks faith in God"!

    Are you sure you get this from the Bible? Let me ask you this, if having no faith in God is not a sin, then what is it? Further, you simply have not grasped the whole Biblical doctrine of sin and Salvation. It is very clear, that those who end up in hell, is because of their unconfessed and unpardoned sins, the greatest being the rejection of the Lord Jesus as their Saviour! Read the words of Jesus in John 8:24; "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins". That is, if you do not believe the Truth about Jesus, that He, like the Father is Almighty God, that He alone is THE Saviour of mankind, etc. you will die remaining in your sins! In Mark's Gospel, 3:29, the best reading here has it: "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, has never forgiveness, but is in danger of an eternal sin"

    No one is "automatically" saved, whether elect or not. There is a condition laid down for Salvation which is called "repentance". As Jesus Himself said in Luke 13:3, "except you repent, you shall all likewise perish" It is because of mans pride in his refusal to conform to the Just demands made by a Just God, that we repent and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that He alone is the Saviour of all men, and that there is NOTHING that we can bring to be saved, that damns a man to eternal punishment! It is noting that God has done or not done that results in one going to hell, as Scripture is ver plain in saying, that the Lord is "not willing that anyone should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9), and therefore to Salvation in Jesus! The Salvation that Jesus is conditional upon our believing, "to as many as received Him" (John 1:12); "everyone, whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord, shall be saved" (Acts 2:21. Greek text), etc. It is offered to "everyone without exception", not as Calvinism has twisted it to mean, "everyone without distinction"!
     
  14. johnp.

    johnp.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
  15. johnp.

    johnp.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    aa0310.

    John 6:28-29 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
    Luke 13:3, "except you repent, you shall all likewise perish"
    Belief and repentance are the same thing at the point of salvation.
    What's the offer precisely?

    johnp.
     
  16. aa0310

    aa0310
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2003
    Messages:
    99
    Likes Received:
    0
    Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved! This is the offer of Salvation to all you believe (which does include repentance)! Do you not read this in your Bible?
     
  17. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    YUOu limit it to people who believe. To do otherwise would be to be a universalists.

     
  18. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, I am sure! In revelation 20 there are two judgments, one is the judgment of our deeds, and sins that we do are deeds just as good works that we do are deeds. Then there is the judgment of our life which is determined by whether or not our names are found in the book of life. How does one's name get written in the book of life? It happens when we come to faith in God, Jesus, The Christ, The Son of God or all of them. Yes, ones name can also be blotted from the book of life if one loses or repents from having faith.

    Glad you asked, It is
    the condition of your spirit, not a deed that you do! If your spirit is in the condition of Faith, then you will want to repent from sinning, you will want to do righteous works to please the one who atoned for your sins. If your spirit is in the condition of LACKING FAITH, you do not care about the things of God. That is not sin, it is the condition of spirit that causes one to reject God, and thus end up in the lake of fire. One must Actively have faith, which means chooses to believe in God, If one does not Actively choose to believe in God, one passively rejects God, and God has no obligation to save those who passively reject Him. He has Promise to save those who have faith in HIM, and faith cometh by hearing (not just receiving but accepting) and hearing by the word of God. Faith is not a commodity that God gives to man, it is a condition of man's spirit resulting from hearing and believing. No man receives faith as a gift of God! God established that man can hear and believe using the mind and spirit that make up the man, Faith is not a work because it requires no work on the part of man, it is a change in man brought about by hearing and believing.

    You are mixing faith and blasphemy, they are not the same. And for you to say I simply have not grasped the whole biblical doctrine of sin and salvation, then quoting John 8:24, provides only one brush stroke of a wall mural.

    Your doctrine of sin and Salvation fails to mention ATONEMENT FOR SIN, provided by the one you quoted. Atonement means that one pays the debt of another. Sin brings with it the debt of DEATH, Jesus' Atonement paid that debt of ALL SIN, because Jesus dealt with that which brings death to us. That which is paid for is not charged against us. The penalty of Sin has been paid for ALL, ONCE for ALL, thus sin IS NOT A FACTOR IN SALVATION! If it were the scriptures would say, for by atonement we are saved, or by repentance ye are saved, or by repentance ye are saved. Scripture declares none of those, but it does say we are SAVED THROUGH FAITH, and that Salvation is not of ourselves but is a gift of God to those who have faith! There is nothing we can do to earn Salvation. If faith was something we could do, then we could not be saved through faith. Faith is not what we do, it is what we possess. So your doctrine of Sin and Salvation is in error, because sin has been dealt with by the only one who could deal with it. Repentance comes after one has established faith in God.

    That does not mean that we can sin with impunity! We are accountable for our sins in the same manner that we are accountable for our works of righteousness. They will be judged! But our eternity is not based on them, our eternity is based on the FAITH CONDITION of our spirit!

    NO ONE REPENTS BEFORE FIRST BELIEVING!
    Agreed!

    Pastor Larry,
    YUOu limit it to people who believe. To do otherwise would be to be a universalists.</font>[/QUOTE]Please post MY Post that says that atonement is limited to those who believe, make sure you include the date and time stamp of the post. I am the one who has been "YELLING" that the ATONEMENT IS UNIVERSAL, and THAT IT COVERS ALL SIN IN ALL TIMES. That is pretty UNIVERSAL! Salvation on the other hand is limited to ONLY THOSE WHO HAVE FAITH WHEN THEY PASS FROM THIS LIFE, for they do not face judgment! ATONEMENT DOES NOT SAVE EVEN ONLY HUMAN BEING, but it does enable EVERYONE who believes in Jesus to have everlasting life, because the atonement removed the death penalty from man, all men in all times! No death penalty? Then Salvation must by THROUGH FAITH ALONE!

    You need to go back and read revelation 20 1-15, read it carefully and you will see that there are two judgments spoken of, ONE OF DEEDS, and the other of whether or not one's name is found in the book of life.
    UNBELIEF IS NOT SIN! IT IS THE CONDITION OF ONE'S SPIRIT THAT MAKES THAT SPIRIT UNACCEPTABLE TO GOD! IT IS THE UNBELIEVING SPIRIT THAT GETS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE! THE BELIEVING SPIRIT PASSES FROM DEATH INTO EVERLASTINGLIFE! AS FOR "EXPLICITELY SAYS", PULL YOU HEAD OUT OF THE SAND LARRY! YOU "EXPLICITELY BELIEVE" THOSE PASSAGES OF SCRIPTURE THAT SUPPORT YOUR OWN ILL THOUGHOUT DOCTRINES, WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO RECOGNIZE THE TRUTHS IN THE OTHER SCRIPTURES! THINK IT THROUGH LARRY!
     
  19. aa0310

    aa0310
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2003
    Messages:
    99
    Likes Received:
    0
    Pastor Larry

    You say:

    "YUOu limit it to people who believe. To do otherwise would be to be a universalists"

    This is unbiblical, Calvinistic nonsense, and contradicts what the Bible actually says!

    Let me give you but a few examples, that have to be seen with an honest mind, and not one that is blinded by the lie of Limited Atonement!

    Look at the real meaning of John 3:15-18; 1 Timothy 4:10, 1 John 2:2; 2 Peter 2:1, and 3:9, to name but a few. Don't give any of that Calvinistic twisting of these verses, as they CLEARLY teach that Jesus indeed died for the whole of mankind, without any limits. At least people like Dr Robert Dabney are honest enough to say that some of the above mentioned verses do NOT stand up for the Calvinistic interpretations. Something an honest, uncritical mind will not disagree with!
     
  20. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    i don't disagree with that, Wes. I already said that. The point is that limited atonement does not believe less about the atonement, it believes more. Did you listen to that link I recommended above? IT will help you understand, even if you don't agree.

    The fact is that God does send people to hell for sin. That is explicit and you have denied it.
     

Share This Page

Loading...