2 peter 3:9

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Rich_UK, Apr 25, 2004.

  1. Rich_UK

    Rich_UK
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    Someone asked me that if I'm a calvanist, how do we explain 2 peter 3:9....to be honest, I've never given it much thought before....does anyone have any good apologetics or articles..something that I can print off....

    2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

    Thanks
    Rich
     
  2. Ian Major

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    Hi, Rich

    The key is in the words 'toward us'. Is the 'us' all mankind without exception, or is it the 'us' the writer and those to whom he wrote, and by extension, all Christians? I think the latter makes more sense.

    1. If it menat all mankind, how would 2000 years help in saving them all? Surely it just produces many more unbelievers who will die in their sins.

    2. But God has the number of the elect fixed, and their moment of conversion. He will not end the world before the last one of His sheep is brought back to the fold.

    In Him

    Ian
     
  3. Rich_UK

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    Thanks Ian, that makes sense.
     
  4. Frogman

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    Here are the comments of John Gill:

    Gill's comment

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas
     
  5. Hischild

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    I've heard Calvinists say that 2 Peter 3:9 is aimed at Christians.
    All the Calvinists I've met believe in once saved, always saved.
    If this verse is aimed at Christians, wouldn't that mean that some could loose their Salvation?
     
  6. Ian Major

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    Hi, Hischild

    I've heard Calvinists say that 2 Peter 3:9 is aimed at Christians. All the Calvinists I've met believe in once saved, always saved. If this verse is aimed at Christians, wouldn't that mean that some could loose their Salvation?

    No, it says He is NOT willing that any should perish. He therefore witholds the Day of Judgement until every last sheep has been brought home.

    In Him

    Ian
     
  7. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Ian;
    What is bold is what the word says What is not bold is not in scripture it's only your idea.

    The reason he says that He is not willing that any should perrish is because He is not willing.

    Man chooses life or death;
    Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
    Man has a choice to choose to live with Christ or die and be in Hell for eternity. We are offered the Choice. Christ doesn't force His way into your hearts. He is gentle and loving and would never force Him self on any one.

    Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

    May God Bless you;
    Mike
     
  8. Me2

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    2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    What is his promise?

    that he is not willing that any should perish.
    that all should come to repentence...

    and..

    that mankind will receive a new heaven and new earth where righteousness dwells. (2 pet 3:13)

    that is the good news... that as all enemies of mankind has been demonstrated to be defeated by the resurrected man Jesus Christ. the promise is an oath of the son to the father as well as the son to all mankind that all mankind shall defeat all enemies as he has openly demonstrated.

    coming to repentence is the acknowledgement of truth that this reality (defeated death) has already occurred. now, each man, woman, and child must individually experience this and acknowledge its reality to themselves. and Jesus openly states that he is not willing that any should fail to reach this accomplished goal.

    the goal of acknowledging that sin and death be realized as defeated by every man woman and child. leading to the statement..

    Death is swallowed up in victory.
    1Co 15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

    as some men count slackness....waiting for God to pronounce some to everlasting hell without repreive. where is Gods victory here. for death will have won. and this statement in 2 peter is that the lord promises to all men that..
    HE IS LONGSUFFERING TOWARDS ALL...

    2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

    If Jesus has actually abolished Death..

    then all mankind have at this point of Jesus appearance, repented and have been resurrected from death into immortality..think about it!

    Me2
     
  9. Bartholomew

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    Personally (and I might be the only person in the world that thinks this!), I think both sides have merit in what they say. The "us" certainly does seem to refer to Chrsitians; but the "not willing that any should perish" seems to imply that some WILL perish, but God doesn't want it. After all, extra time is no help in God making people repent, for God could do it whenever he liked (note the passage doesn't assert that God makes people repent, this is just what Calvinists think happens). However, extra time IS a help to Christians who are walking in sin to turn from that sin before Christ returns.

    My position is this: When Christ returns, he will punish many Christians for their unfaithful walk, and they will perish (there are many Bible passages that back this up - e.g. the parable of the talents). Only those who are commended for their walk are rewarded, and invited into Christ's kingdom to reign with him. At the end of Christ's kingdom (1000 years later), those who perished will be ressurected and enter the new heaven and earth for all infinity. So now He's delaying coming back so that Christians have chance to repent before he comes.

    I know I'll probably be the only one on here that thinks this way, but I thought I'd just add the comment anyway. There was a time when many, many fundamentalists (both Calvinsist and Arminian) thought this way (though I don't know if they applied THIS passage to that position).
     
  10. Ian Major

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    Mike said,
    Man has a choice to choose to live with Christ or die and be in Hell for eternity. We are offered the Choice. Christ doesn't force His way into your hearts. He is gentle and loving and would never force Him self on any one.

    We agree, man has a choice. He will choose according to his nature, the desires of his heart. Do you accept this?

    Man's nature is evil, however, and will always reject God. Do you accept this?

    How then does God get to save anyone? By giving them a heart of flesh for their heart of stone. THEN they will freely love and obey Him.

    Do we read of that in Scripture? Ezekiel 36: 26I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

    Here are the terms of the New Covenant under which we are saved, Jeremiah 31: 31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

    No one is dragged into the Kingdom of God, rather He makes them willing in the day of His power.

    In Him

    Ian
     
  11. Ian Major

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    Me2 said,
    that is the good news... that as all enemies of mankind has been demonstrated to be defeated by the resurrected man Jesus Christ. the promise is an oath of the son to the father as well as the son to all mankind that all mankind shall defeat all enemies as he has openly demonstrated.

    You are obviously reading something other than the Bible, Me2. Christ plainly teaches that all who refuse the gospel will die in their sins and be banished from His presence. You are teaching that all will be saved - a flat denial of Christ's words.

    Please explain yourself.

    In Him

    Ian
     
  12. Ian Major

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    Hi, Bartholomew.

    You said,
    Personally (and I might be the only person in the world that thinks this!), I think both sides have merit in what they say. The "us" certainly does seem to refer to Chrsitians; but the "not willing that any should perish" seems to imply that some WILL perish, but God doesn't want it. After all, extra time is no help in God making people repent, for God could do it whenever he liked (note the passage doesn't assert that God makes people repent, this is just what Calvinists think happens). However, extra time IS a help to Christians who are walking in sin to turn from that sin before Christ returns.

    Well, the extra time would be required to accommodate God's appointment for each on of His elect to be saved. Also, if the extra time was merely to allow sinning Christians to repent, what about the Christians who use that time to fall from their holy walk - does that not mean the time has to extended to infinity, always trying to catch up with those who leave by the back door as quick as those entering by the front door?

    My position is this: When Christ returns, he will punish many Christians for their unfaithful walk, and they will perish (there are many Bible passages that back this up - e.g. the parable of the talents). Only those who are commended for their walk are rewarded, and invited into Christ's kingdom to reign with him. At the end of Christ's kingdom (1000 years later), those who perished will be ressurected and enter the new heaven and earth for all infinity. So now He's delaying coming back so that Christians have chance to repent before he comes. I know I'll probably be the only one on here that thinks this way, but I thought I'd just add the comment anyway. There was a time when many, many fundamentalists (both Calvinsist and Arminian) thought this way (though I don't know if they applied THIS passage to that position).

    I don't want to open the can of worms on the Lord's Return, but I certainly never heard of your take on discipling Christians. Can you tell us who these believers were who held to this? The parable of the talents seems to me to tell of believers being rewarded in various degrees, and unbelievers being cast into hell. Likewise with the other parables. The specific revelation of Judgement Day given by our Lord in Matt.25 makes no allowance for anything other than heaven and hell.

    In Him

    Ian
     
  13. DeafPosttrib

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    'To us-ward' of 2 Peter 3:9 does not limited for the Christians only. It apply to every individuals of the world.

    Please look in Romans 5:8 "But God commendeth is love toward us, in that, while we WERE yet sinners, Christ died for us." Obivously, it tells us, God loved all sinners of the world, not just for Christians only.

    1 John 2:2 - "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and NOT for ours only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE world." It is very clear tell us, Christ died on the cross not for us(Christians) only, also, He died for all sinners of the world.

    2 Peter 3:9 tells us, God's will that He does not want all people go to hell, but want ALL people come to repentance. His desire that every individuals come to repentance for salvation. Most people are on the way to hell, because they refuse repent toward God.

    That why, Christ commands us go and preach to every persons over the world - Matt 28:19-20; and Mark 16:15, desire to see all people to repent and be saved.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  14. Bartholomew

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    Hi Ian,
    But God doesn't NEED extra time to save his elect, if it is totally of God, and man has no say (except as God dictates what he decides).
    No, it means they waste that time, not repent, and will then be severly judged for it at the Judgement Seat of Christ when Jesus returns.
    To be honest, neither did I - but I did think I might as well post what I saw to be the merits in both sides' thinking. It's strange (or not, as the case may be) that this doctrine has put me on the other side to both the Arminians AND the Calvinists several times in these discussions. ;)
    OK - the belief was taught to various degrees by various authors. The central idea that the millennial kingdom was a reward for faithfulness, and that many believers would not enter it was taught by practically all the pre-millenialists of the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries. The view that excluded Chrsitians could be punished at the judgement seat or throughout the millenial kingdom was taught by writers such as Robert Govett, G.H. Lang, G.H. Pember, G.H. Panton, S.S. Craig, R.E. Neigbour and Watchman Nee. The evangelist to China, Hudson Taylor, also believed this doctrine (though to what extent, I am not sure).
    But why do you assume the servant who buried his talent was an unbeliver? In fact, he resembles the believer much more than lost man. However, there are many other passages of scripture that teach this doctrine, not just one parable. If you e-mail me I can send you a short article all about it. Finally, as for your comment about hell, many of the above taught that the saved Christian could be banished to the prison of hell at the judgement seat, and remain there as a punishment throughout the millennial kingdom. Only when earth and heaven fled away would he be allowed to enter with Christ into the new earth, where all his tears would be wiped away, and there would be no more pain.

    OK - can of worms opened. Sorry - perhaps we should start a new thread about this? It's much bigger than the subject of 2 Peter 3!
     
  15. Askjo

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    Calvinists believe in God's election more important than the repentance. How would a Calvinist explain concerning the REPENTANCE on this verse? God wants ALL to come to repentance, not selects whom He likes and dislikes. Think with me -- My dad said, "Come" then should I OBEY him? If I rebel against him, what would my dad do to me? That is what this verse means.
     
  16. Hischild

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    I'm enjoying reading both points of view on this topic.
     
  17. pinoybaptist

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    And how do you explain 'to-usward' here ? Is to-usward saying all men ? Is this letter addressed to all mankind ? Only in your dreams, askjo. only in your dreams.
     
  18. Bartholomew

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    Sorry - I got Panton's initials wrong. They were D.M.. Also, I could add Alexander Patterson, S.A. Goebel, G.F. Poynder, W.P. Clark, R.T.Ketcham, A.G. Tilney and Philip Mauro (at first, though he later started allagorizing prophecy) to the list. So I just did. :D
     
  19. Ian Major

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    Hi, Deafposttrib

    You said,
    Please look in Romans 5:8 "But God commendeth is love toward us, in that, while we WERE yet sinners, Christ died for us." Obivously, it tells us, God loved all sinners of the world, not just for Christians only.

    We need to be careful when we come to Scripture, that we do not read into it rather than reading it. Where is the reference here to 'all the sinners of the world'? It is 'we' and 'us' Paul speaks of, that is, Christians. While WE were yet sinners, Christ died for US.

    1 John 2:2 - "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and NOT for ours only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE world." It is very clear tell us, Christ died on the cross not for us(Christians) only, also, He died for all sinners of the world.

    Again, where does it say He died for all the sinners of the world? It says He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world - but what does that mean? It can mean:
    1. Christ is the propitiation for the sins of not only John's readers, but also for people from all nations (but not every individual of those nations).
    2. Christ is the propitiation for any man's sins, any man that comes to Him.

    Either of these meanings is consistent with Calvinism.

    What it cannot mean is that Christ has actually made propitiation for the sins of the whole world. It is manifestly not the case that God and the world are at peace, for the wrath of God abides on the wicked, and one day they will perish in hell. No propitiation for them.

    2 Peter 3:9 tells us, God's will that He does not want all people go to hell, but want ALL people come to repentance. His desire that every individuals come to repentance for salvation. Most people are on the way to hell, because they refuse repent toward God.

    The most natural interpretation of this verse is that which relates the 'all' to the 'us'. God's patience is toward US, not toward all men without exception. Indeed, millions are daily cut-off in the prime of life, in their sins. How does this accord with 'all' meaning all without exception?

    That why, Christ commands us go and preach to every persons over the world - Matt 28:19-20; and Mark 16:15, desire to see all people to repent and be saved.

    Many Calvinists believe that God can both desire the repentance of all His creatures, but also determine to grant repentance to only His elect. Some Calvinists have a problem with this 'two wills of God' but I don't. All men ought to obey God, so it is right that God desires that. But all men are guilty and deserve to perish in their sins, so God is not obliged to save anyone.

    We go to preach to every creature so that His elect will be saved, and the reprobate condemned for their unbelief.


    In Him

    Ian
     
  20. Ian Major

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    Bartholomew said,
    But God doesn't NEED extra time to save his elect, if it is totally of God, and man has no say (except as God dictates what he decides).

    He needs the exact time He chose in which to save us. He determined I was to be born in 1949 and born again in 1967. I could not have been saved a moment sooner.

    The view that excluded Chrsitians could be punished at the judgement seat or throughout the millenial kingdom was taught by writers such as Robert Govett, G.H. Lang, G.H. Pember, G.H. Panton, S.S. Craig, R.E. Neigbour and Watchman Nee.

    Wow! I thought there was sometime strange about premillenialism after I discovered the restoration of the temple sacrifices and priesthood in the 'millenium'. That's when I abandoned it. Now you have given me some further reasons to reject it. Christians in hell for a season??? Surely Christ bore all our hell for us!

    But I'm thankful for your pointing out these beliefs to me and I will look them up. My email address: [email protected]

    But why do you assume the servant who buried his talent was an unbeliver? In fact, he resembles the believer much more than lost man.

    Matt.25:30And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' NOT the destination of the righteous.


    OK - can of worms opened. Sorry - perhaps we should start a new thread about this? It's much bigger than the subject of 2 Peter 3!

    I'm a bit pressed for time at the moment, dear brother, but hopefully I will come back to you after I read your article.

    In Him

    Ian
     

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