2 peter 3:9

You said, 'The people of Christ's day couldn't believe because they were Jews who were being hardened.'

Ray: The original Apostles were all Israelites/Jews; the Apostle Paul also was a Jew. The message when out first to the Jews.

 

First, I cannot figure out how being "made after the similitude of God" (Jas. 3:9) contradicts total depravity. I have heard many theories as to what that actually means, but let us assume that it does mean what you claim. Man still possesses all the faculties he was created with, and no Calvinist denies that. However, how does man utilize those faculties after the fall? That is the question. You assume that because God created man with a will that man still has the will and the ability to use it the same way now as before. That is certainly not the case. "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:44) In this text, Jesus clearly taught the inability of man to come to Him.

 

Calvinists quickly conclude that because the Word says, '"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:44)', means that God is in the mode of only drawing some sinners to become His elect ones. What the Divine Godhead is saying is that no sinner would come to Jesus except for the ministry of the Holy Spirit on his or her life. Once the message of salvation is understood, God invites all sinners to come to Him. He is not a ' . . . respecter of persons.' [Acts 10:34] He is totally impartial toward every person who ever has or will have lived. And because He is impartial, He remains the perfect God of justice, which is one of the attributes of Almighty God.

Primitive Baptist said: 'In this text, Jesus clearly taught the inability of man to come to Him.'

Ray: 'Yes, the sinner will not come to Jesus unless God the Spirit woos that person toward saving grace.

The last words in the canonical books of the Bible says, in Revelation 22:17, that not only the Holy Spirit draws all sinners to Himself, but the 'bride/us/the church' calls for sinners to repent. All sinners are 'thirsty' to know God, but the Evil one has blinded them until God the Spirit opens their eyes to the truth and the real need of knowing Christ unto eternal life. In this verse God is not merely drawing the future elect ones; the call goes out to all who hear the Gospel unto salvation. In Biblical words, the call goes out to ' . . . whosoever will.' Let that sinner ' . . . take the water of life freely.' God does not coerce the sinner into grace; the lost one must ' . . . take the water of life.' While God offers the gift of grace, the lost ones must of their own will receive the precious gift of life.'

 

Hi Primitive baptist;

Why would God draw a man in the first place if Calvinism is correct?. Aren't they predestined to be saved? Aren't they elected?. Isn't it a fact that it makes no difference wether God draws man or not what will be will be?. If God chose them to be saved they will be. Just seems to me that if God goes to all that trouble to insure certain individuals are saved why does He have to draw them? Sounds like a back up plan to me. Do you think God needs a back up plan in order to succeed in dominating mans Salvation?

May God give you the light to see his truth;
Mike

 

First of all, Acts 10:34 does not teach that God is totally impartial to every man who has ever and will ever live. Read 10:35: "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness is accepted with him." The love of God is not restricted to just a certain nation. In Genesis 4:4, the Scripture says that God had "respect unto Abel and to his offering." Exodus 2:25, the Scripture says that God had "respect" to the children of Israel (cf. Lev. 26:9; 2 Kgs. 13:23). How do you reconcile that?

"But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel." (Exo. 11:7)

How did you get your Doctorate in Theology without know the word "draw" (Gr., "helkuo") does not mean "woo?" It means "to draw by inward power, lead, impel." Look it up Ray. All sinners are not thristy to know God (Romans 3:10-18). I agree that the Gospel call is to "whosoever will," but not everyone wills. Besides, water quenches thirst. It has already been shown that not all sinners are thirsting after God. The water of life is a symbol for redemption, justification, pardon, etc. which a sinner, having been born again, is thirsting for. The Gospel of grace proclaims these things as FINISHED and calls upon those who are labouring and heavy laden to drink and rest under the shade tree of Christ's finished work. The work was accomplished 2000 years ago. It is not an ongoing process. We come to the knowledge of it in time.

 

Mike, go study some more because you obviously do not know what Calvinism teaches. Then, come back and we might can talk.

 

Also...does God need a backup plan for the kingdom. You're a Dispensationalist, right? Aren't we living in backup plan B (the church)? We were chosen UNTO salvation. That is predestination. God brings that to pass in time (providence).

 

Ray Berrian said
Ray is saying, 'We too agree that men and women as sinners are not as innocent as in Eden. Some sinners with evil hearts of the worst sort, have received Christ and have had that inner change that only Jesus can accomplish. Therefore, your last statement that starts saying, 'Having evil hearts . . . ' is not a true statement.'

This is the crux of our disagreement. Can an evil heart love God, be sorry for offending Him and gladly submit to Him? Arminians say Yes. Calvinists say No. What says the Scripture? Review all the texts I have used in this debate, e.g. Rom.8: 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. I will deal with the key concept of the new heart below.


Ray is saying: 'That is correct; some do reject Christ. This proves that Irresistible Grace is a serious error.' [John 5:40 & Acts 7:51]

Then you misunderstand the doctrine of Irresistible Grace. It does not teach that the Spirit cannot be resisted, rather it teaches that He comes in irresistible power to the elect at the moment God has appointed to save them. Irresistible to the elect, at the moment of His appointing, not to all, nor all the time.

Ray is saying, 'God will never give a new heart, as you phrase it, until the sinner opens the door of his heart to the Lord Jesus.' He is the Savior not a Divine Manipulator.'

God is saying, Jer.31: 33But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
No ifs or maybes there, Ray. No dependence on man's free-will. God has appointed a moment in which He will convert all Israel.

Again, Ezek. 36: 26I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

See what Paul says in Rom.11: 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins."

Do you believe all Israel will be saved? You need to be a Calvinist to do so.

God never overrides the sinner's will to bring about faith. Faith is always a sinners response to the Lord. [John 1:12, Hebrews 4:2, I Peter 1:7,9,21]

He certainly doesn't overide the non-elect's will. But what of the elect? Does He not sovereignly GIVE them faith. Eph.2:8; GRANT them repentance, Acts 11:18.

Yes, we have a depraved nature, through Original Sin, but we are also created after the likeness of the Lord God. [James 3:9]

We agree. But freedom to choose good or evil is not part of that image. It was something other, just as our bodies are not part of that image. God is not free to choose evil - His choice is determined by His nature. Fallen man's choice is also determined by his nature. He needs a new nature to make a new choice.

Also, you will seldom to almost never see a Calvinist explaining John 1:9, because it smacks against their view of a mistaken, Total Depravity. If we were totally depraved not one sinner would have ever come to know the Lord in that inner and personal sense.

You must live a very sheltered life, Ray. The first Calvinistic commentator I checked (Wm. Hendriksen) has about two pages devoted to that verse.

God takes totally depraved sinners, gives them a new heart that understands spiritual things and loves Him, and they repent and believe. Very inner and personal.

Jesus 'was/is the true Light, Who lighteth every person who comes into the world.' Before Jesus birth He for the most part was not in human form under the Old Covenant; but with His coming through the incarnation He showed human, sinners what God is really like. Now when we read the Bible we are illumined as to Who and what God is in His relationship toward sinners and saints.

We agree. 'We' are illumined - God's elect. But what is the verse referring to? Commentators differ. Natural reason given from its Creator? Gospel truth that men hear in preaching? etc. All have their difficulties. For example, not all hear the gospel. So this verse is not one to show the truth or falsity of Total Depravity.

Ray is saying, 'Actually the word is 'believe' and not the same, exacting word, faith. It is theologically unethical to talk about depravity without including my references in the Book of James and St. John chapter one; to be fair theology must be studied thoroughly and understood with clear balance.

What are you referring to? Who has ignored your references to these passages? Am I missing something?

In Him

Ian

 

I agree. I was speaking generally about the Jewish nation being hardened. The exception are the remanant that God reserved out of Israel who He appointed to take the message of Christ to the world. I've been through this many times.

 

Ian,

We agree on some points and disagree about other issues.

You said, 'This is the crux of our disagreement. Can an evil heart love God, be sorry for
offending Him and gladly submit to Him? Arminians say Yes. Calvinists say
No. What says the Scripture?'

Ray: An evil heart does not need to love God; it only needs to sense conviction and rebellion against the Lord. The Holy Spirit approaches the sinner to 'convict him of sin, of His righteousness and the future judgment.' If the sinner already had a 'new heart' as you suggest, that saint would already realize that he had been convicted and convinced of his sin, he would know about Jesus' righteousness, and he would already have realized there is a coming day of judgment.

You said, 'Review all the texts I have used in this debate,
e.g. Rom.8: 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not
subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.'

Ray: We agree with the truth of Romans 8:7. And because we are in a state of rebellion before coming to know the Lord, God the Spirit works His ministry of Divine conviction of sin and the danger of refusing Him.'

Ray is saying: 'That is correct; some do reject Christ. This proves that Irresistible Grace is a serious error.' [John 5:40 & Acts 7:51] The point is that most sinners resist the conviction of sin and go on in their willful rebellion.' Of course, those who receive Christ do not go on resisting His Presence in their lives.

You said, 'Then you misunderstand the doctrine of Irresistible Grace. It does not teach
that the Spirit cannot be resisted, rather it teaches that He comes in
irresistible power to the elect at the moment God has appointed to save
them. Irresistible to the elect, at the moment of His appointing, not to all,
nor all the time.'

Ray: God knocks at the heart's door; He does not ramrod His way into a sinner's life.

Ray is saying, 'God will never give a new heart, as you phrase it, until the sinner opens the door of his heart to the Lord Jesus. He is the Savior to those who believe after being convicted and convinced of their lost state; Jesus is not a Divine Manipulator.'

Ian said, 'God is saying, Jer.31: 33But this is the covenant that I will make with the
house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their
minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be
My people.'

Ray: 'Your passage above speaks to the fact that during the future Great Tribulation and during the Millenimum Jesus will persuade many sinners to follow the Lord. This has nothing to do with the church age.'

Ian said, 'No ifs or maybes there, Ray. No dependence on man's free-will. God has
appointed a moment in which He will convert all Israel.'

Ray: The part that you got straight above is that 'all Israel will become saved' during the 1,000 year reign of Christ when He will set up His theocracy on the earth. [Zechariah chapter fourteen] Free will is a Divine verity. If salvation was not available to all, God would become unjust and the One who arbitrarily damns the majority of sinners. No chapter in the Bible warrants or blesses this concept.'

Ian said, 'See what Paul says in Rom.11: 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is
written:
"The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins."

Do you believe all Israel will be saved? You need to be a Calvinist to do so.'

Ray: Yes, I am a dispensationalist and agree with you that during the Millenimum, as I said above, all Israel will become saved.'

Ray said before: 'God never overrides the sinner's will to bring about faith. Faith is
always a sinners response to the Lord. [John 1:12, Hebrews 4:2, I Peter 1:7,9,21]

I find it interesting that you never responded to these passages; I realize that it is most difficult to dovetail these truths into Calvinistic theology. Work on it and you will become a Biblical theologian with all presuppositions fallen by the wayside.'

Ian said, 'He certainly doesn't overide the non-elect's will. But what of the elect? Does
He not sovereignly GIVE them faith. Eph.2:8; GRANT them repentance, Acts 11:18.

Ray: God is sovereign in that He elected to have sinners decide their eternal destiny. We are not dancing puppets on the stage of life for Him to manipulate. God convicts of sin and the sinner chooses either to repent/turning away from his sin or to continue in his depravity via Original Sin.'

Ray has said, 'Yes, we have a depraved nature, through Original Sin, but we are also
created after the likeness of the Lord God. [James 3:9]'

Ian said, 'We agree. But freedom to choose good or evil is not part of that image.'

Ray: Wrong. When Israel was tempted to go after foreign gods, Joshua said to his beloved nation, 'And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, (then) choose you this day whom ye will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served . . . . but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.' Only a spiritually unsaved blind man could not see the truth of free will and human choice being included in the 'image of God in man.' [Joshua 24:15]

Ian said, ' It was something other, just as our bodies are not part of that image.'

Ray: Wrong. Jesus will look the same in Heaven when we get there as He did while He was on earth. He will, however, have a spiritual body as we also will, that is not made of flesh and blood.'

Ian said, 'God is not free to choose evil - His choice is determined by His nature.'

Ray: I have not decided about your first clause above, yet. But when Jesus was going through His temptation, you are suggesting that He could never have chosen the evil/wrong. If this is true then it was not a bonified temptation.'

You said, 'Fallen man's choice is also determined by his nature. He needs a new nature to make a new choice.'

Ray: Your statement above would be correct only if sinners were Totally Depraved. But, since they are depraved and yet are created 'in the image of God' [James 3;9]they are not as evil as you pretend.

Ray said, 'Also, you will seldom to almost never see a Calvinist explaining John
1:9, because it smacks against their view of a mistaken, Total
Depravity. If we were totally depraved not one sinner would have
ever come to know the Lord in that inner and personal sense.

Ian said, 'You must live a very sheltered life, Ray. The first Calvinistic commentator I
checked (Wm. Hendriksen) has about two pages devoted to that verse.'

Ray: 'Come on now, Ian, you and I and everyone else knows that John 1:9 does not have the same amount of commentary as Romans 9:13.'

Ian said, 'God takes totally depraved sinners, gives them a new heart that understands spiritual things and loves Him, and they repent and believe. Very inner and personal.'

Ray: 'God takes depraved sinners, gives them a new heart that understands spiritual things and loves Him, after they repent and believe in Jesus. Very inner and also personal . . . '

Ray said in the past, 'Jesus was/is the true Light, Who lighteth every person who comes
into the world.' Before Jesus birth He for the most part was not in human form under the Old Covenant except in His theophanies, but with His coming through the incarnation He showed human, sinners what God is really like. Now when we read the Bible we are illumined as to Who and what God is in His relationship toward sinners and saints.

Ian said in the past, 'We agree. We are illumined - God's elect. But what is the verse referring to? Commentators differ. Natural reason given from its Creator? Gospel
truth that men hear in preaching? etc. All have their difficulties. For example,
not all hear the gospel. So this verse is not one to show the truth or falsity
of Total Depravity.'

Ray: 'For sure John 1:9 does not teach Total Depravity. It suggests that since Jesus came to earth we have a foundational idea as to who the Lord God really is in His Divinity. When we read the Gospel or hear good preaching a sinner realizes that Jesus is supernatural and they sense a conviction of their waywardness. His Light leads to everlasting life if they open their hearts/lives to Him.'

Ray is saying, 'Actually the word is 'believe' and not the same, exacting word, faith. It is theologically unethical to talk about depravity without including my references in the Book of James and St. John chapter one; to be fair theology must be studied thoroughly
and understood with clear balance.'

Ian said, 'What are you referring to? Who has ignored your references to these
passages? Am I missing something?'

Ray: 'If you included in your theology the passages in James and John you could never believe in the misnomer of Total Depravity. Yes, all sinners are depraved but no so much so that they are without a will, conscience, or mind with which to repent of their sins and believe in Jesus for salvation.

Study the Divine justice of God and you will have to surrender the wrong idea of Unconditional Election. Like you said before, His nature prohibits Him from doing certain things. Another example is that He cannot have mercy on some sinners without having compassion toward all lost souls. I believe you said, 'His choice is determined by His nature.' This is correct.'

Berrian, Th.D.

 

Stop studying theology and start studying the Bible, and you'll see that unconditional election is true.

 

npetreley,

Notice the amount of Scripture that I use in developing Christian, Biblical theology and how little some other people use in projecting Calvin's ideas.

For starts explain the meaning of these verses. 'God never overrides the sinner's will to bring about faith. A faith, trust in Jesus is always a sinners response to the Lord. [John 1:12, Hebrews 4:2, I Peter 1:7,9,21]

Your last declarative statement had not one verse of Scripture to back your statement.

Best regards,
Ray

 

For starts explain the meaning of these verses. 'God never overrides the sinner's will to bring about faith. A faith, trust in Jesus is always a sinners response to the Lord.'

Sorry, but I haven't found that verse anywhere in the Bible. I think that's only in the book of
"Puffed-up Arminian Theologians" which never made it into the canon.

 

npetreley,

That was a clever answer, but we do not find any exegesis of said verses, which means we see no scholarship or spirituality to be found in your lack of answers.

Regards . . .

 

Unless I missed it, I see no exegesis of the verses you used as references. All I see is "here is my conclusion" [ref: this and that verse].

 

Ray Berrian said
An evil heart does not need to love God; it only needs to sense conviction and rebellion against the Lord. The Holy Spirit approaches the sinner to 'convict him of sin, of His righteousness and the future judgment.'

Yes - and what will the evil heart do when it is so convicted? Tremble, like Felix or the demons. It takes a good heart to respond with repentance and faith, Luke 8: 15But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

If the sinner already had a 'new heart' as you suggest, that saint would already realize that he had been convicted and convinced of his sin, he would know about Jesus' righteousness, and he would already have realized there is a coming day of judgment.

You are separating these things in time, when they are intimately connencted to each other. Like repentance and faith, they cannot be separated by time even though they are separate things. The neww heart is given on hearing the preached word; immediately the sinner responds to that word in repentance and faith.

God knocks at the heart's door; He does not ramrod His way into a sinner's life.

Exactly so. He never ramrods His way in, but always makes us willing in the day of His power. He draws us with the bands of love - but that drawing is irresistible, divinely sweet and irresistible to the hungry heart.

'Your passage above speaks to the fact that during the future Great Tribulation and during the Millenimum Jesus will persuade many sinners to follow the Lord. This has nothing to do with the church age.'

I won't get into the modern error that is called Dispensationalism, but just to say that even if this passage did not speak of the church, it certainly teaches Irresistible Grace. ALL Israel will be saved, not just 'many sinners' as you phrase it. For ALL Israel to be saved, one must see that God is sovereignly converting them, giving them the same new heart you and I possess.

On the subject of the New Covenant, it IS that covenant under which we are saved. It is that covenant we celebrate every Lord's Day at His Table. It is everlasting covenant referred to in Heb.13: 20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen. We are New Covenant people, Ray.

Free will is a Divine verity. If salvation was not available to all, God would become unjust and the One who arbitrarily damns the majority of sinners. No chapter in the Bible warrants or blesses this concept.'

Why is God obliged to offer salvation to anyone? Are all men not damned by their own sin? Is God not free to save none or to save any as He chooses - seeing we have no right to salvation? Does not Scripture declare this from beginning to end? Examples: God chose Israel and passed by ALL the other nations. He revealed Himself to them, His message of salvation was preached to them alone. The Egyptians, Moabites, Edomites, Hittites, etc. perished in their sins. Anytime God chose to move outside Israel with the gospel, it was at His discretion, and it was infrequent. Rahab, the widow of Zarephath, etc. Paul reminds us, Rom.9: He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Ray said before: 'God never overrides the sinner's will to bring about faith. Faith is always a sinners response to the Lord. [John 1:12, Hebrews 4:2, I Peter 1:7,9,21]
I find it interesting that you never responded to these passages; I realize that it is most difficult to dovetail these truths into Calvinistic theology. Work on it and you will become a Biblical theologian with all presuppositions fallen by the wayside.'

I just didn't see your point. Calvinists do not say God overides the sinner's will. We say He changes the sinners will.

But you asked for a response to these specific verses, so here goes:
John 1: 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

To those who receive Christ, who believe in Him, God gives the right to become the children of God. Calvinists and Arminians agree on this. What is your point?

Heb.4: 2For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

The gospel has no profit for those who have no faith. Calvinists and Arminians agree on this. What is your point?

I Peter 1: 7that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,... 9receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. ... 21who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Our faith is proved by trials, resulting in glory at His appearing; salvation is the end result of our faith; our faith and hope are in God. Calvinists and Arminians agree on this. What is your point?

Wrong. When Israel was tempted to go after foreign gods, Joshua said to his beloved nation, 'And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, (then) choose you this day whom ye will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served . . . . but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.' Only a spiritually unsaved blind man could not see the truth of free will and human choice being included in the 'image of God in man.' [Joshua 24:15]

These verses show only that God demands a choice to be made; they do NOT tell us evil men are able to choose the good. It is the good heart that chooses to do the good - Joshua.

I'm sorry you regard me and all Calvinists as 'spiritually unsaved blind men'. You must account for that to your Master.

Wrong. Jesus will look the same in Heaven when we get there as He did while He was on earth. He will, however, have a spiritual body as we also will, that is not made of flesh and blood.

You use this fact to assert that our bodies are part of the Divine image - but when Adam was created, God had no body. Also, if the image refers to our bodies, would it not require God to have both a male and female body?

I had said, 'God is not free to choose evil - His choice is determined by His nature.' To which Ray replied
I have not decided about your first clause above, yet. But when Jesus was going through His temptation, you are suggesting that He could never have chosen the evil/wrong. If this is true then it was not a bonified temptation.'

Wow! I'm surprised you hold such a view. You deny the impeccability of Christ; is that the common view in your Seminary? Where exactly did you get your Th.D?

Of course, I hold that the temptation was genuine, even though Christ could not have sinned. Just like the offer of the gospel is genuine, even though men are not able to accept it.

Your statement above would be correct only if sinners were Totally Depraved. But, since they are depraved and yet are created 'in the image of God' [James 3;9]they are not as evil as you pretend.

I'm glad you see the difference. At least you face up to the logical conclusion of partial depravity - that men are not so evil as Calvinism paints. But Scripture happens to agree with Calvinism's assessment of man's nature, Rom.3:10-18.

Come on now, Ian, you and I and everyone else knows that John 1:9 does not have the same amount of commentary as Romans 9:13.

That is not what you said, Ray. Here is what I responded to: Also, you will seldom to almost never see a Calvinist explaining John 1:9, because it smacks against their view of a mistaken, Total Depravity. You make wild assertions, and I prove you wrong, then you pretend it was a different assertion!

'For sure John 1:9 does not teach Total Depravity. It suggests that since Jesus came to earth we have a foundational idea as to who the Lord God really is in His Divinity. When we read the Gospel or hear good preaching a sinner realizes that Jesus is supernatural and they sense a conviction of their waywardness. His Light leads to everlasting life if they open their hearts/lives to Him.'

So you say John 1:9 is fulfilled in the preaching or reading of the gospel. How does this happen to 'every man coming into the world'? Does 'every man' not mean every man, or just those who hear the gospel?

If you included in your theology the passages in James and John you could never believe in the misnomer of Total Depravity. Yes, all sinners are depraved but no so much so that they are without a will, conscience, or mind with which to repent of their sins and believe in Jesus for salvation.

The passages you referred to, John 16: 8And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: and James 3: 9With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the similitude of God. are completely compatible with the doctrine of Total Depravity. It is your misunderstanding of what Calvinism teaches that leads you to such an erroneous view.

Calivinists believe all men are capable of conviction; Calvinists believe all men are made in the image of God. All men have a will, conscience, mind - but we deny that that mind can repent and believe. We say that God must change the sinner's heart so that his will, conscience, mind is no longer emity with God but rather gladly submits to Him.

Study the Divine justice of God and you will have to surrender the wrong idea of Unconditional Election. Like you said before, His nature prohibits Him from doing certain things. Another example is that He cannot have mercy on some sinners without having compassion toward all lost souls. I believe you said, 'His choice is determined by His nature.' This is correct.'

Never mind what the Scripture says? Study this, Ray, Rom.9: 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. It just plainly refutes what you here allege.

In Him

Ian

 

Ian,

Ray Berrian said:
'An evil heart does not need to love God; it only needs to sense
conviction and rebellion against the Lord. The Holy Spirit approaches
the sinner to 'convict him of sin, of His righteousness and the future
judgment.'

Ian said, 'Yes - and what will the evil heart do when it is so convicted? Tremble, like
Felix or the demons. It takes a good heart to respond with repentance and
faith, Luke 8: 15But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who,
having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit
with patience.'

Ray: It may be a new concept to you, but demons sins were not paid for on the Cross. And as to Felix [Acts 24:24-25] notice that his evil heart, 'reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and of the future judgment.' He had a will and wanted to reject the Gospel for the time being. Felix 'heard Paul concerning the faith in Christ.' This text proves that Resistible Grace, an Arminian doctrine is correct. He could have been saved in these moments, but we are never told that he ever bowed to Christ's authority and salvation.

Ian said, 'You are separating these things in time, when they are intimately
connencted to each other. Like repentance and faith, they cannot be
separated by time even though they are separate things. The neww heart is
given on hearing the preached word; immediately the sinner responds to
that word in repentance and faith.'

Ray: God has ordained different approaches to Himself and His blood atonement. Under the O.T. they brought the lamb; under the N.T. we come directly to the Lamb of God. In the Millennial Kingdom on earth, sinners will bow to Jesus and all people will nevertheless be saved through His Divine atonement, no matter which era they lived under.

Ray: God knocks at the heart's door; He does not ramrod His way into a
sinner's life.

Ian: Exactly so. He never ramrods His way in, but always makes us willing in the
day of His power. He draws us with the bands of love - but that drawing is
irresistible, divinely sweet and irresistible to the hungry heart.'

Ray: This sounds somewhat reasonable but it is wrong. The Lord is not a Divine Puppeteer dancing some off to Heaven and the majority to Hell. Contrary, to what you and other Calvinists think, He really loves everyone in the sinful state. [Malachi 1:9, John 3:16 & Acts 17:30] He is not partial or prejudiced toward anyone.

Ray said, 'Your passage above speaks to the fact that during the future Great
Tribulation and during the Millenimum Jesus will persuade many
sinners to follow the Lord. This has nothing to do with the church age.'

Ian said, 'I won't get into the modern error that is called Dispensationalism, but just to say that even if this passage did not speak of the church, it certainly teaches
Irresistible Grace.

Ray is saying, 'Irresistible Grace is a serious error. Study: Isaiah 63:10, Jeremiah 19:15, John 5:40, Acts 7:51] Resisting the Holy Spirit is a Divine fact and reality. If you were a pastor you would have seen this more than once.'

Ian said, 'ALL Israel will be saved, not just 'many sinners' as you
phrase it. For ALL Israel to be saved, one must see that God is sovereignly
converting them, giving them the same new heart you and I possess.'

Ray: Wrong! During the Millennium and in Zechariah 14:18-19 most clearly points out that not all citizens of the world will accept Christ. Vs. 18 speaks of Egypt which is a Muslim nation. I will agree with you that the Israelites will recognize and accept their Messiah/Savior. Why wouldn't they, they are God's chosen people. During the church era most are rejecting Jesus as their Messiah.

Ian said, 'On the subject of the New Covenant, it IS that covenant under which we are
saved. It is that covenant we celebrate every Lord's Day at His Table. It is
everlasting covenant referred to in Heb.13: 20 Now may the God of peace
who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the
sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21make you complete
in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His
sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen. We
are New Covenant people, Ray.'

Ray: Thanks brother; as if I did not understand that. They would not have conferred on me the doctorate in theology, if I denied this.

Ray said, 'Free will is a Divine verity. If salvation was not available to all, God
would become unjust and the One who arbitrarily damns the majority
of sinners. No chapter in the Bible warrants or blesses this concept.'

Ian said, 'Why is God obliged to offer salvation to anyone? Are all men not damned by
their own sin? Is God not free to save none or to save any as He chooses -
seeing we have no right to salvation? Does not Scripture declare this from
beginning to end?'

Ray: God has determined in eternity past to provide salvation for all sinners. [John 3:16] The Lord God decreed this to be His plan.

Ian said, 'Examples: God chose Israel and passed by ALL the other
nations. He revealed Himself to them, His message of salvation was
preached to them alone. The Egyptians, Moabites, Edomites, Hittites, etc.
perished in their sins. Anytime God chose to move outside Israel with the
gospel, it was at His discretion, and it was infrequent. Rahab, the widow of
Zarephath, etc.

Ray: 'Pharaoh knew about the Lord God up front and personal but he and his nation rejected the Lord God of the universe and world.'

Ian said, 'Paul reminds us, Rom.9: He says to Moses, "I will have
mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on
whomever I will have compassion." 16So then it is not of him who wills, nor
of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17For the Scripture says to
the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show
My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."
18Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He
hardens.'

Ray: 'This passage has absolutely nothing to do with saving the remnant, and damning the trillions upon trillions of sinners. The Lord raised up Pharaoh, who refused the Lord and His salvation, to show His superior power and authority over this great and powerful leader from Egypt. You spoke of this in verse seventeen.'

Ray said before: 'God never overrides the sinner's will to bring about
faith. Faith is always a sinners response to the Lord. [John 1:12,
Hebrews 4:2, I Peter 1:7,9,21]
I find it interesting that you never responded to these passages; I
realize that it is most difficult to dovetail these truths into Calvinistic
theology. Work on it and you will become a Biblical theologian with all
presuppositions fallen by the wayside.'

Ian, 'I just didn't see your point. Calvinists do not say God overides the sinner's
will. We say He changes the sinners will.'

Ray: I understand that you think that God converts the soul and then, after this alleged fact, He allows sinners to receive His salvation.

Ian said, 'But you asked for a response to these specific verses, so here goes:
John 1: 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to
become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

To those who receive Christ, who believe in Him, God gives the right to
become the children of God. Calvinists and Arminians agree on this. What is
your point?

Ray: If sinners don't receive Christ neither do they receive His gift of grace; that is my point.

Heb.4: 2For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but
the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in
those who heard it.

Ian said, 'The gospel has no profit for those who have no faith. Calvinists and
Arminians agree on this. What is your point?

Ray: 'They did not commingle their faith with the truth of the Gospel, therefore, they were lost. You cannot blame the Lord for their lack of personal faith. God does not push off faith on some sinners, while withdrawing that offer toward the majority of sinners.'

I Peter 1: 7that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious
than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise,
honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,... 9receiving the end of
your faith--the salvation of your souls. ... 21who through Him believe in
God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith
and hope are in God.

Ray: James says that this experience that we call faith is our faith or in Biblical words, 'Your faith.' This faith is not God's faith nor is it given to certain sinners. The offer of grace is to all sinners while faith is a sinner's response to His offer of grace.

Our faith is proved by trials, resulting in glory at His appearing; salvation is
the end result of our faith; our faith and hope are in God. Calvinists and
Arminians agree on this. What is your point?

Ray: Again this faith comes from our heart, will, decision and response to His convicting power coming from the Holy Spirit.

Wrong. When Israel was tempted to go after foreign gods, Joshua
said to his beloved nation, 'And if it seem evil unto you to serve the
Lord, (then) choose you this day whom ye will serve, whether the
gods which your fathers served . . . . but as for me and my house, we
will serve the Lord.' Only a spiritually unsaved blind man could not see
the truth of free will and human choice being included in the 'image of
God in man.' [Joshua 24:15]

Ray: Sinners are not Totally Depraved but they are depraved. They understand the truth and idea of the saving Gospel of Jesus Christ, because of the aid of the Spirit of God. Sinners have a conscience, a will, and the power to either reject or to accept Jesus.

Ian said, 'These verses show only that God demands a choice to be made; they do
NOT tell us evil men are able to choose the good. It is the good heart that
chooses to do the good - Joshua.'

Ray: Read in the Bible, 'Lord be merciful to me a sinner.' His Word does not say, 'Lord be merciful to me, Your converted saint.

Ian said, 'I'm sorry you regard me and all Calvinists as 'spiritually unsaved blind men'.
You must account for that to your Master.'

Ray: You may be saved but you are blinded to the fullness of the truth of His truth. God the Son will judge both you and me and all others. [John 5:22b]

Ray said before, 'Wrong. Jesus will look the same in Heaven when we get there as He
did while He was on earth. He will, however, have a spiritual body as
we also will, that is not made of flesh and blood.

Ian said, 'You use this fact to assert that our bodies are part of the Divine image -

Ray: Our bodies are part of the Divine image. Read Revelation 1:12-17.

Ian, 'but when Adam was created, God had no body.'

Ray: God may have had a physically styled Body like He presently has in Heaven. Before the Garden of Eden He could have had a body like I referred to above.

Ian said, 'Also, if the image refers to our bodies, would it not require God to have both a male and female body?'

Ray: We have already been told that Jesus was the Son of Man on this earth; not the Son of a Woman.

I had said, 'God is not free to choose evil - His choice is determined by His
nature.' To which Ray replied
I have not decided about your first clause above, yet. But when Jesus
was going through His temptation, you are suggesting that He could
never have chosen the evil/wrong. If this is true then it was not a
bonified temptation.'

Wow! I'm surprised you hold such a view. You deny the impeccability of
Christ; is that the common view in your Seminary? Where exactly did you
get your Th.D?

Ray: 'You infer that there is no other position than the Impeccability of our Lord. In case you do not know, many theologians believe in the possibility of the Peccability of Jesus while being tempted in the wilderness. Read: "Basic Theology" by Dr. Charles C. Ryrie, Moody Press, p. 304. The well known Dr. Charles Hodge, "Systematic Theology" Eerdmans Press, 1960, 2:457, believes that it was a possibility that Jesus could have yielded to evil while in the wilderness experience as mentioned in the Bible.

Ian said, 'Of course, I hold that the temptation was genuine, even though Christ could
not have sinned. Just like the offer of the gospel is genuine, even though
men are not able to accept it.'

Ray: This is a foolish statement. It is disingenuous, insincere and deceitful to say and think that the Gospel is offered to sinners, but God causes most of them not to receive Himself. Arminian theologians do not believe that the God of holiness, could also be deceitful.

Ray said before: Your statement above would be correct only if sinners were Totally
Depraved. But, since they are depraved and yet are created 'in the
image of God' [James 3;9]they are not as evil as you pretend.

Ian said, 'I'm glad you see the difference. At least you face up to the logical conclusion
of partial depravity - that men are not so evil as Calvinism paints. But
Scripture happens to agree with Calvinism's assessment of man's nature,
Rom.3:10-18.'

Ray: If sinners were totally depraved, we would be forever frozen in our sins and rebellion. The Bible points out that the Holy Spirit is able to convict and convince sinners of their need of Christ, even before salvation takes place.

Come on now, Ian, you and I and everyone else knows that John 1:9
does not have the same amount of commentary as Romans 9:13.

Ian said, 'That is not what you said, Ray. Here is what I responded to: Also, you will
seldom to almost never see a Calvinist explaining John 1:9, because it
smacks against their view of a mistaken, Total Depravity.

Ray: 'For sure John 1:9 does not teach Total Depravity. It suggests that
since Jesus came to earth we have a foundational idea as to who the
Lord God really is in His Divinity. When we read the Gospel or hear
good preaching a sinner realizes that Jesus is supernatural and they
sense a conviction of their waywardness. His Light leads to
everlasting life if they open their hearts/lives to Him.'

Ray: Study John 1:9 and you will then understand how a sinner can receive Christ in John 1:12.

Ian: So you say John 1:9 is fulfilled in the preaching or reading of the gospel.
How does this happen to 'every man coming into the world'? Does 'every
man' not mean every man, or just those who hear the gospel?

Ray: Of course, all who hear the Gospel will be challenged by the Spirit to receive Christ.

Ray said before: If you included in your theology the passages in James and John you
could never believe in the misnomer of Total Depravity. Yes, all
sinners are depraved but no so much so that they are without a will,
conscience, or mind with which to repent of their sins and believe in
Jesus for salvation.

The passages you referred to, John 16: 8And when He has come, He will
convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: and James
3: 9With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who
have been made in the similitude of God. are completely compatible with the
doctrine of Total Depravity. It is your misunderstanding of what Calvinism
teaches that leads you to such an erroneous view.

Ray: Good. I am glad that you also believe that God can convict a sinner of his or her sins.

Ian: Calivinists believe all men are capable of conviction; Calvinists believe all men
are made in the image of God. All men have a will, conscience, mind - but
we deny that that mind can repent and believe. We say that God must
change the sinner's heart so that his will, conscience, mind is no longer emity
with God but rather gladly submits to Him.

Ray: I understand your dilemma. Even with the sinner's depravity he still has the facilities with which to turn from his sins to the Lord God.

Ray said before: Study the Divine justice of God and you will have to surrender the
wrong idea of Unconditional Election. Like you said before, His nature
prohibits Him from doing certain things. Another example is that He
cannot have mercy on some sinners without having compassion
toward all lost souls. I believe you said, 'His choice is determined by
His nature.' This is correct.'

Never mind what the Scripture says? Study this, Ray, Rom.9: 14 What shall
we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15For He
says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will
have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16So then it is not
of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17For
the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you
up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in
all the earth." 18Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He
wills He hardens. It just plainly refutes what you here allege.'

Ray: As I pointed out before in this particular post, Romans 9 does not portray Jesus as a Domineering, Autocratic, Divine, Puppeteer. His love, justice and mercy goes out to all sinners. [Acts 2:21; 16:31]

Oh, by the way, why do you want to know where I received the Th.D. degree? Some of you need to serious listen to some of us who have been trained in the seminary, or are you like the Calvinist, lay-theologian, Mr. Camping, who vigorously teaches that Christians should leave their local churches and only listen to him. When a person really thinks that Calvinism is the truth, they are only one small step away from accepting more errors.

Study more carefully my friend.

Ray

 

Ian,

You referred to Luke 8:5-15 and I found Jesus' similar ideas in Matthew 13:3-9.

Matthew 13:3-9 reminds us that--we as Christians, through Him, sow the seed of the Gospel of salvation. It is the same seed unto salvation; some of His seed is not inferior so that some sinner's will not take root. The cardinal lesson of this passage is to teach us that various sinner's have different kinds of hearts or lives. Some are hardened more than others toward God because of their sins and rebellion. The great thing is that even some of the worst sinners turn from their sins. Vss. 4-7 typify the various kinds of sinner's lives who hear, understand and yet refuse Christ. Vs. 8 points to sinners who receive Jesus and yet some of these Christians during this lifetime yield more fruit than other saints. Notice, they all brought forth at least some fruit.

I am sure we all notice the activity of the evil one in either removing the seed of the Gospel or as in vs. 7 the things of this world appeared more important to the sinner than their eternal salvation.

God was not prejudicial toward any sinner, but their attitude toward the Lord decided their eternal destination and destiny. The seed {the Word of God} went out to all sinners, but their heart life, the seat of their affections, determined their response to Almighty God.

 

Primitive Baptist,

You said, 'Also...does God need a backup plan for the kingdom.'

Ray: 'God never spoke of the church age in the Old Testament. He always knew that this dispensation would come to being, as spoken of in Ephesians 3:5. The Apostle Paul called this dispensation/era [vs. 2] 'the fellowship of the mystery' [vs. 9a]. God called it also 'the mystery'. This church age [10] was hidden to every person until He decided to reveal it through the Apostle Paul and in the Book of Acts.

You said, 'You're a Dispensationalist, right?'

Ray: Yes, I am a dispensationalist and so was the Apostle Paul. Read Ephesians 3:2.

You said, 'Aren't we living in backup plan B (the church)?'

Ray: Just because the O.T. prophets and John the Baptist did not preach about it, does not make it your idea of Plan B.

You said, 'We were chosen UNTO salvation. That is predestination.'

Ray: We are His chosen ones because we have responded to Jesus and His plan of salvation, but not because He arbitrarily picked us for Heaven.

You said, 'God brings that to pass in time (providence).

Ray: Yes, I gladly agree with you here. We live in time and are looking forward or toward eternity. In His loving and merciful Providence God the Spirit has called us to see Christ through the Scriptures, and of our most urgent need of receiving Him into our lives.

Even since our salvation I am sure we can see His providence in our daily lives. He is working all things according to the counsel of His own will.

My wife has some family we visited in N.C. last week; they live in Williamstown several miles from Edenton, which is on the waterfront. {spelling may be wrong}

 

Ray Berrian

Ray, you hold to false views of what Calvinism teaches, despite my efforts to correct you. Example, Felix 'heard Paul concerning the faith in Christ.' This text proves that Resistible Grace, an Arminian doctrine is correct. He could have been saved in these moments, but we are never told that he ever bowed to Christ's authority and salvation.

As I already explained, Calvinists believe the non-elect DO resist the Holy Spirit. In fact, the elect do so too - UNTIL the moment God has appointed for them to repent and believe. THEN His grace comes irresistibly, converting the soul.

Also, If you were a pastor you would have seen this more than once.' I was a pastor to prisoners for many years, so I have witnessed both the sinner resisting the Holy Spirit and God's Irresistible Grace at work.

Wrong! During the Millennium and in Zechariah 14:18-19 most clearly points out that not all citizens of the world will accept Christ. Vs. 18 speaks of Egypt which is a Muslim nation. I will agree with you that the Israelites will recognize and accept their Messiah/Savior. Why wouldn't they, they are God's chosen people. During the church era most are rejecting Jesus as their Messiah.

I wasn't speaking of all mankind, Ray. ALL Israel. Then you say 'Why wouldn't they be saved?' - because they are sinners, Ray. The same reason they reject Him now. The question is, Why will they be saved? Answer, because God is going to give them, ALL of them, a new heart. No 'free-will' involved. Just like now, when He gives a new heart to a remnant of Israel, but hardens the rest. So then He will give a new heart to ALL Israel.


Ray: 'Pharaoh knew about the Lord God up front and personal but he and his nation rejected the Lord God of the universe and world.'

Pharaoh may have known about the LORD, but was that true of all Egyptians, Moabites, Hittites, Chinese, Germans, etc? No, even today people live and die without ever hearing the gospel. Much more so then. They did so with ' no hope and without God in the world.Eph.2:12.

You cannot blame the Lord for their lack of personal faith. God does not push off faith on some sinners, while withdrawing that offer toward the majority of sinners.'

Another example of you misrepresenting Calvinism. Sinners are responsible for their lack of faith, not God. Calvinists say God gives faith to those whom He has chosen, but the rest remain responsible for their own unbelief.

Also, Calvinism does not say God 'withdraws the offer' - The offer of salvation on repentance and faith is for all. But only those to whom He gives that repentance and faith are saved.

This faith is not God's faith nor is it given to certain sinners. The offer of grace is to all sinners while faith is a sinner's response to His offer of grace.

Faith is ours, but first it has to be given to us, Eph.2:8. Same for repentance, it must be granted to us, Acts 11:18. God gives it to us, we exercise it toward Him.

Read in the Bible, 'Lord be merciful to me a sinner.' His Word does not say, 'Lord be merciful to me, Your converted saint.

You err because you separate the events of conversion. The sinner is given a new heart, but his conversion is not complete until he uses it to repent and believe. So he is still a sinner when he says, 'Lord be merciful to me a sinner.' Immediately one saying this he is justified, his conversion is complete.

You may be saved

That's not what you said before. I expect some accuracy from a ThD.

You infer that there is no other position than the Impeccability of our Lord.

No, I know several who hold that view - I was just surprised you did. My assumptions as to your likely background. My mistake.

This is a foolish statement. It is disingenuous, insincere and deceitful to say and think that the Gospel is offered to sinners, but God causes most of them not to receive Himself. Arminian theologians do not believe that the God of holiness, could also be deceitful.

There you go again. I did not say God 'causes most of them not to receive Himself'. Calvinism teaches that man is his own cause. Man does not want to receive Him, nor will they do so unless God changes them. God causes His elect to receive Him - that's Calvinism.

Of course, all who hear the Gospel will be challenged by the Spirit to receive Christ.

Answer the question, Ray. How does this equate with 'every man coming into the world'? Not everyman hears the gospel.

I understand your dilemma. Even with the sinner's depravity he still has the facilities with which to turn from his sins to the Lord God.

No dilemna for me. YOU have to explain how a wicked heart, mind, will would ever submit to God.

Oh, by the way, why do you want to know where I received the Th.D. degree? Some of you need to serious listen to some of us who have been trained in the seminary,

Just that you seem to lay such store by your credentials; and that you seem ignorant of many of the facts concerning Calvinism, something less than I expect from rigerous theological training. I, and others on this list I'm sure, would like to know what this august establishment is.

BTW, I too have some theological training, though I don't parade it. I did three years full-time study at the Irish Baptist College in Belfast, gaining a DipTh. from Queens University, Belfast and the IBC's Diplomna in Theological and Pastoral Studies.

Let's hear your side.

When a person really thinks that Calvinism is the truth, they are only one small step away from accepting more errors.

Most of the downward spirals I see are via Arminianism. Open Theology, Romanism, Charismania.

In Him

Ian