2 Peter 3:9

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Southern, Oct 23, 2004.

  1. Southern

    Southern
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    2 Peter 3:9 is often brought up in this forum. My question is:

    "Why should we take this verse, in the Arminian sense, to mean that "all" is each and every person without distinction?"

    Could you please provide evidence from the context for your position and comment on the following paragraph from a website:

    Arminians insist that in II Peter 3:9 the words "any" and "all" refer to all mankind without exception. But it is important first of all to see to whom those words were addressed. In the first verse of chapter 1, we find that the epistle is addressed not to mankind at large, but to Christians: "...to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us." And in a preceding verse (3:1), Peter had addressed those to whom he was writing as "beloved." And when we look at the verse as a whole, and not merely at the last half, we find that it is not primarily a salvation verse at all, but a second coming verse! It begins by saying that "The Lord is not slacking concerning his promise" [singular]. What promise? Verse 4 tells us: "the promise of his coming." The reference is to His second coming, when He will come for judgment, and the wicked will perish in the lake of fire. The verse has reference to a limited group. It says that the Lord is "long-suffering to us-ward," His elect, many of whom had not yet been regenerated, and who therefore had not yet come to repentance. Hence we may quite properly read verse 9 as follows: "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise as some count slackness, but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any of us should perish, but that all of us should come to repentance."

    taken from: http://www.mbrem.com/calvinism/reform5.htm
     
  2. DeafPosttrib

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    Southern,

    I would like to tell you about 2 Peter 3:9.

    I am not an Arminianist. I understand 2 Peter 3:9 very clear and simple. I do not need to read Greek. I can read 2 Peter 3:9 in my own language - English.

    The key that we can understand what 2 Peter 3:9 is talking about, we have to read the context of chapter 3, what it is talking about.

    We have to start with verse 3, the last days scoffers asked and saying, where is Lord's promise of his coming. Many of them already died throughout centuries. They were expecting Lord might come anytime in thier lifetime.

    Apostle Peter used the illustation of Noah - vs. 5-7.

    While Noah built the Ark, I am sure, many of them already saw Noah built the Ark on a dry land. And I am no doubt, Noah already preached warning to people about the coming of flood. Noah built the Ark for 120 years. In my mind, for example: 10 years old son notices Noah builts the Ark, then he asks his Dad, "Why does he built the Ark?" Dad laughs and saying to him, "For many years, I heard rumours about the flood will destroy the world, but I don't believe it, because it will never happen, and we never see rain, don't believe Noah, what he saying." I am sure, many people were laughing at Noah, they think he is no nut.

    God was long-suffering with people for 120 years. He was waiting for any perosn to come into the Ark. God gave so plenty time to people to have chance to repent and enter the Ark for 120 years.

    2 Peter 3:8 shows us, during Noah's day, people would have saying, 'We have hear the same old story for so many years, but, nothing to happen.'. 100 years seem so long time to people's sight. But, people were not aware of the flood suddenly came upon them, and took them away. Apostle Peter's point of verse 8 tells us, 1000 years in our sight, it seems so very long time. But, in the Lord's sight, 1000 years are tooooooo short time for him LIKE AS a day.

    Apostle Peter tells us of verse 9, Lord's will, that He does not want all people to be perish, but command everyone come to repentance. He is long-suffering toward us, that he commands us to repentance.

    The lesson of history in Genesis chapter 6 & 7 telling us, the flood came and destroyed them all, because they do not repentance of their sins, they are right now in hell.

    Apostle Peter warns us, Lord's coming shall be like as thief in the night. - 2 Peter 3:10

    Throughout many centuries, many people saying, 'I hear many saying Jesus is coming soon, but it never happen for many years." In other word, people would make laugh, and do not believe Jesus is coming again, same as what happened to people in Noah's day.

    Jesus tells us, flood came and took them all away immediately, so shall be same as at Christ's coming - Matt. 24:37-39.

    When Christ shall come with His angels, people who are not watch and ready, and remain in sins without repentance, He shall send his angels to grab all people in the air without any expect, that is called, 'thief in the night' comparing same with the flood came and took them all away.

    The oppurinity of salvation is now give people have plenty time to repentance for nearly 2,000 years - 1 Cor. 6:2.

    But, the oppurinity of salvation will be finished, when once Christ shall come with his angels to grab them away.

    So, it was same as what happened to people in Noah's day.

    God's will, that He commands every person on earth to repentance, He does not want all people go perished. He loves all people of the world (John 3:16).

    More people are in the hell, because they refused to repentance of their sins, and reject Jesus Christ.

    Obivously, the Bible teaches us, salvation is for everyone of the world, not just for the Christians only (1 John 2:2).

    I am not claim for "universalism", I understand clear what the Bible saying.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  3. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Southern;
    As they say the proof is in the pudding. The word "all" is all inclusive. I don't have a problem with it's obvious meaning. You do so prove it doesn't mean all inclusive. The dictionary says it is all inclusive. When we find something in scripture we don't like we should pray about it. Sometimes the Word is like that it doesn't always tell us what we want to hear.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  4. Ray Berrian

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    Think of it, it is the Lord's 'promise' [vs. 9a] ' . . . that none should perish and that all people should come to repentance' {my translation} And notice that He is patient with sinners, to a point, and then judgment falls. The final judgment of sinners is expressed in Revelation 20:11. But for now, He is reaching out to the fallen sons and daughters coming out of the His creation way back to the Garden scene, which includes us.
     
  5. Southern

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    DeafPostrib,
    Most of your post seems to overlook the paragraph that I provided and showed no effort on your part to interact with what I am saying.

    Notice that the "all" is delimited by the preceding phrase: '"Usward", or "You"'. Please reread the first post and comment.

    (Personal Note: "If you are a "Post trib", do you know of any good books on that subject that I might can reference from that viewpoint?"

    May God bless you
     
  6. Southern

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    Mike,
    I have dealt with your unbiblical assertion that "All" means all inclusive in the 1 Tim 2:4 forum. All does not always mean "All inclusive" without respect to the context (Mark 1:5, 1 Cor. 12:13). About the Word not always telling "us what we want to hear", I think your inability to prove your Arminian interpretation should help you see that maybe what you want it to say, does not.

    In Christ
     
  7. Southern

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    Ray,
    You said:

    Think of it, it is the Lord's 'promise' [vs. 9a] ' . . . that none should perish and that all people should come to repentance' {my translation} And notice that He is patient with sinners, to a point, and then judgment falls. The final judgment of sinners is expressed in Revelation 20:11. But for now, He is reaching out to the fallen sons and daughters coming out of the His creation way back to the Garden scene, which includes us.


    Me: How could Peter be speaking about all mankind when the epistle is addressed not to mankind at large, but to Christians: "...to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us." And in a preceding verse (3:1), Peter had addressed those to whom he was writing as "beloved."

    If you believe this should mean all mankind, then please provide evidence from the context because Peter is obviously got something quite different in mind.

    May God bless you
     
  8. Ray Berrian

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    Southern,

    It is true that II Peter 3:1 speaks of the '[beloved.'

    But in verse nine Peter does not need to tell the saved elect that He is longsuffering toward them nor do they have to worry about 'perishing, nor do they need repentance. This being expressed, only the lost are in need of longsuffering/patience, they need to escape from perishing and they are in dire need of repentance.

    Why? Because the Day of the Lord will come and the earth will be incinerated with fire.

    Ray
     
  9. Southern

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    Ray,

    You said:
    It is true that II Peter 3:1 speaks of the '[beloved.'

    Me:
    Then we agree that this is the audience, and this is the same "you" of verse 9. The audience is God's elect (1 Pet. 1:1;2 Pet. 1:1).

    You Said:
    But in verse nine Peter does not need to tell the saved elect that He is longsuffering toward them nor do they have to worry about 'perishing, nor do they need repentance.

    Me:
    He is speaking about those who are the elect but who have not yet come (John 6:37) to repentance (vs. 9). Please go back and review my first post.

    You said:
    This being expressed, only the lost are in need of longsuffering/patience, they need to escape from perishing and they are in dire need of repentance.

    Me:
    He is not referring to lost mankind in general, but to the elect who have not come to faith and repentance (vs. 9;John 6:37).

    I must ask you: "If you agree that the audience is not mankind in general, than how do you prove from the context that the all should be taken this way, even though it is delimited by the "us" or "you" of verse 9?

    May God bless us
     
  10. Ray Berrian

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    The Greek scholar Dr. Kenneth S. Wuest makes these statements "In These Last Days" about II Peter chapter three.

    'His will is not even that 'some' should perish, though that is regarded as inevitable . . . . Some will perish, but it is not His will. His will is that all should come to repentance. The goodness of God should lead to repentance.' p.70.

    Second statement: 'It is not God's considered will that any should perish. There is the sovereignty of God and the free will of man. God will not violate man's will. While it is His considered will that no one should be lost, yet in making man in His image He necessarily had to make him a free moral agent, with a will which is able to say "yes" and "no" to Him. While God is always willing to save man, man is not always willing to be saved.' p.71.

    Third statement: 'The word "willing" is (boulomai). The synonyms thelo and boulomai mean "to wish, desire."

    Your theory admittedly was clever but not true to the text and yet well within the parameter of Calvinism.

    Dr. A.T. Robertson says the same thing as Dr. Wuest. Something to sleep on . . .
     
  11. Southern

    Southern
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  12. Southern

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    Ray,
    None of the above explains why you believe that Peter is speaking of mankind in general when it is obvious that he is speaking to the elect (1 Pet. 1:1;2 Pet. 1:1;2Pet. 3:1)and hence irrelevant. You try to bring in a group that is nowhere mentioned in the text to protect your 'tradition'al interpretation. Your interpetation has to be read "into" the text and is not a result of careful exegesis.

    Would you please explain how Peter is talking to and about the elect of God, and you say that it is mankind in general?

    In Christ
     
  13. DeafPosttrib

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    Southern,

    2 Peter 3:9 does not always speak to us as elect, also, it apply to everyone of the world.

    Because, the context of 2 Peter 3:3-7 speak of the people(unbelievers) of the world, that the last days scoffers asking, where is the promise of Lord's coming? Many of them already died throughout many centuries ago. They were expecting Lord might come anytime in their lifetime. In other word, they often hear old story or rumours saying, Jesus is coming again. People does not believe Jesus is coming. Same with people before flood - 2 Peter 3:5-7. People does not expect the flood suddenly come and took them away (Matt. 24:37-39), so, this shall be same as at Christ's coming shall be like as thief in the night (2 Peter 3:10).

    Genesis chapter 7 tells us, flood killed all people of the world without expect. Same with Christ's coming, all unbelievers of the world shall be take away without expect (thief in the night-vs. 10).

    That why, Lord does not want all people of the world go perished, but He desires all people come to repentance. God is so long-suffering towqard people of the world. God so loved all people (John 3:16; 2 John 2:2).

    But, most people shall be take away without repentance.

    2 Peter 3:9 is so very clearly telling us, God does not want all people go to hell, but want all people to repent. Most people refuses to repent of sins. That why most people are on the way to hell, not because of God's fault, because of their choice.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  14. Southern

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    You:
    2 Peter 3:9 does not always speak to us as elect, also, it apply to everyone of the world.

    Me:
    If you could prove this, it would be very helpful.

    You:
    Because, the context of 2 Peter 3:3-7 speak of the people(unbelievers) of the world, that the last days scoffers asking, where is the promise of Lord's coming? Many of them already died throughout many centuries ago. They were expecting Lord might come anytime in their lifetime. In other word, they often hear old story or rumours saying, Jesus is coming again. People does not believe Jesus is coming. Same with people before flood - 2 Peter 3:5-7. People does not expect the flood suddenly come and took them away (Matt. 24:37-39), so, this shall be same as at Christ's coming shall be like as thief in the night (2 Peter 3:10).

    Me:
    This does not explain how Peter is writing to the elect of God (1 Pet. 1:1;2 Pet. 1:1) and in the start of this chapter clearly sets his "audience" up as the "beloved" (3:1). How do you assume that he includes a portion of people or peoples that is not "addressed" in this book or chapter? On what basis do you assume that the "us" is anything other than his audience?

    You:
    Genesis chapter 7 tells us, flood killed all people of the world without expect. Same with Christ's coming, all unbelievers of the world shall be take away without expect (thief in the night-vs. 10).

    That why, Lord does not want all people of the world go perished, but He desires all people come to repentance. God is so long-suffering towqard people of the world. God so loved all people (John 3:16; 2 John 2:2).

    Me:
    You jumped to this conclusion without ever providing solid evidence that the "you" in verse 9 is anything but God's elect. Also, I would encourage you to go to the I John 2:2 post and provide evidence for your interpreation on this abused verse and the word "world".

    You:
    But, most people shall be take away without repentance.

    2 Peter 3:9 is so very clearly telling us, God does not want all people go to hell, but want all people to repent. Most people refuses to repent of sins. That why most people are on the way to hell, not because of God's fault, because of their choice.

    Me:
    You come to a false conclusion because you never proved your first assertion that Peter is speaking about mankind in general in verse 9. The only way to get this view is to read into the text something that is clearly not there and to change Peters audience from the elect (1 Pet. 1:1; 2 Pet. 1:1) and the beloved (3:1) to mankind in general.

    May the Lord bless us both in our studies...
     
  15. Southern

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    You:
    2 Peter 3:9 does not always speak to us as elect, also, it apply to everyone of the world.

    Me:
    If you could prove this, it would be very helpful.

    You:
    Because, the context of 2 Peter 3:3-7 speak of the people(unbelievers) of the world, that the last days scoffers asking, where is the promise of Lord's coming? Many of them already died throughout many centuries ago. They were expecting Lord might come anytime in their lifetime. In other word, they often hear old story or rumours saying, Jesus is coming again. People does not believe Jesus is coming. Same with people before flood - 2 Peter 3:5-7. People does not expect the flood suddenly come and took them away (Matt. 24:37-39), so, this shall be same as at Christ's coming shall be like as thief in the night (2 Peter 3:10).

    Me:
    This does not explain how Peter is writing to the elect of God (1 Pet. 1:1;2 Pet. 1:1) and in the start of this chapter clearly sets his "audience" up as the "beloved" (3:1). How do you assume that he includes a portion of people or peoples that is not "addressed" in this book or chapter? On what basis do you assume that the "us" is anything other than his audience?

    You:
    Genesis chapter 7 tells us, flood killed all people of the world without expect. Same with Christ's coming, all unbelievers of the world shall be take away without expect (thief in the night-vs. 10).

    That why, Lord does not want all people of the world go perished, but He desires all people come to repentance. God is so long-suffering towqard people of the world. God so loved all people (John 3:16; 2 John 2:2).

    Me:
    You jumped to this conclusion without ever providing solid evidence that the "you" in verse 9 is anything but God's elect. Also, I would encourage you to go to the I John 2:2 post and provide evidence for your interpreation on this abused verse and the word "world".
    You:
    But, most people shall be take away without repentance.

    2 Peter 3:9 is so very clearly telling us, God does not want all people go to hell, but want all people to repent. Most people refuses to repent of sins. That why most people are on the way to hell, not because of God's fault, because of their choice.

    Me:
    You come to a false conclusion because you never proved your first assertion that Peter is speaking about mankind in general in verse 9. The only way to get this view is to read into the text something that is clearly not there and to change Peters audience from the elect (1 Pet. 1:1; 2 Pet. 1:1) and the beloved (3:1) to mankind in general.

    May the Lord bless us both in our studies...
     
  16. Wes Outwest

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    What specifically is the Lord's Promise? Is it that He will return again? That promise remains a valid promise does it not? Well then, what is keeping him from returning? Is it not because all who will believe in Him have not yet become believers? God is patient and long...really LONG...suffering, continuing in HIS Grace toward mankind until He is ready. In the meantime, his grace which he has not withheld from man remains in force, and though we are not saved by his grace, it is sufficient unto our salvation, because it enables us to come to faith in Him. God's Grace is present for ALL mankind, it is not a commodity that he hands out like candy to some element called 'the elect'. We all experience His Grace, righteous and unrighteous alike! We all have access to "His Word" through the Holy Spirit, and God is not a respecter of man. He does not go about choosing. He has chosen us all in the Son of God's declaration, "For God so loved the world....." So, does Peter's "all" mean "all" or just some? Yes, it means all who will come to Him in FAITH shall be saved.
     
  17. Southern

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    Wes,

    Please go back and read the last page of interaction as we have already discussed your assertion. I must say that you have offered about as much proof as has been given so far from the context... None.

    The "you" is clearly defined in the context (1 Pet. 1:1;2 Pet. 1:1) and the immediate context (3:1). God has a people that must and will come to Him (John 6:37). It is these that He is not willing should perish.

    As for your other comments, I would love to discuss the "points" that you brought up such as:
    God not being a respector of persons. Because I believe that He is not also! And also any scripture you believe teaches Arminianism.

    May God bless you...

    The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox's gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again. -C.H. Spurgeon
     
  18. Wes Outwest

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    Peter is writing the first letter to those who have by persecution been driven away from their homes. Peoples who were permitted to hear the word of God and develope the "spirit of obedience to Jesus", otherwise known as faith in Jesus, and who's sins are atoned by the blood of Jesus.

    This second letter of Peter's, is addressed to Gentiles who have obtained a faith like Peter's own faith.

    The first letter to the first century jewish believers dispersed from Israel, the second to the gentile believers.
    The "people" you refer to are
    Jesus just shot Calvin down! Everyone who "sees the Son and Believes" is the people that you want to call "the elect"!
     
  19. GeneMBridges

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    No, Wes, you have actually SUPPORTED Calvin...


    Us, in the first clause = the persons to whom the letter is addressed, who are clearly Christians. You agree with this.

    The content of the first clause delimits those in the second clause to other believers. It can not mean all persons, both believers and non-believers. You say the persons to whom the second clause refers are the persons in Jn. 6:40. This is exactly what Reformed theology teaches.

    The same persons raised in Jn. 6:40 are the same ones given in 6:37. You forgot to look down into 6:44 where it clearly says that nobody can come to the Father unless they are drawn. The word "can" very clear indicates power or ability not permission. The only way your view works if the word "can" means "permission," but koine Greek does not support that. Unless you're saying as David Hunt says that "given," "draw," and "can" are completely separate meanings, which is not exegetically true at all (even according to other Arminians), then this should be clear.

    Congratulations, you have just proven Southern's exegesis!
     
  20. Wes Outwest

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    Gene,
    "Christian" is a state of faith, not a nationality, or ethnicity. My first quote is 1 peter 1:1,2, my second quote is 2 peter 1:1.

    You can limit God by your definition if you wish, but you cannot limit God to your definition. He has his own desires, and they include "that none should perish". "None" means, not one out of all.

    It is God who created the world, the whole world, not just part of a world. So when one speaks for God, one better have God's perspective.

    The authors of the works known as God's Word, may well have had a limiting perspective as you seem to have. They would not have been "globalists" but rather quite localized. The way they wrote may have been from a limited perspective because they were Jews writing about that which happens to and for Jews...from their perspective.

    All I'm saying is that by limiting the word of God to ones own perspective only limits one's own understanding of God's word.

    I have not set out to prove anyone's exegesis, but since you say I have, I accept your congratulations.
     

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