#2 Second Coming of Messiah Yeshua

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Ed Edwards, Jan 6, 2009.

  1. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Sorry folks, we live in a 3G* world.

    *Note for the technically behind: Refers to the three GigaByte phones now for sale. When I was on my first bulletin board (bb) I used a computer called a Comodore64 where '64' meant 64,000 bytes of memory. The 3G computers have 3,000,000,000 bytes (or maybe 3 Million times 1024 bytes, hard to tell). that would be3 16,000 times as much memory (for about 1/4 the price - the phones won't give you hernia either).

    Calvinists & Lutherans were 1G reformers = First Generation
    Reformed Baptist (AKA: Regular Baptist) were a 2G - Second Generation, Baptist Group
    We turbo Baptists of today are 3G reformers - Third Generation

    - Ed Edwards,
    Transforming Mankind one soul at a time in the Name and Power of Messiah Jesus.

    1G protestants - got Salvation Doctrine Right
    2G protestants - got Church Governance Right
    3G protestants - call folks on cell or satellite phones and type:

    "DoU no MJ?"
    - Do you know Messiah Jesus?

    Seriously: 3G protestants understand WHY ESCHATOLOGY
     
  2. Amy.G

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  3. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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  4. Palatka51

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    Yeah, me too. :confused: :sleep:
     
  5. OldRegular

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    Just to put things in perspective, Ed is restarting the now closed thread: The Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    The above shows just how far many Baptists have strayed from the Faith of our Fathers!
     
  6. thegospelgeek

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    Sorry Ed but 3G is for third generation not 3 Gigabyte.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3G

    Signed your professional nerd.
     
  7. Ed Edwards

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    Sorry, Professional Nerd, I only speak inerrant when I speak of Theology, not when I speak of technology.

    -Ed Edwards,
    1970s* Techo-weenie

    *note: AKA: 0.0G
    - back when 'memory' was scratches on a napkin and permanent storage was typed on a 3x5 Card :godisgood:

    Anyway, I'm the guy who favors only the soft centers of Bread. Otherwise known in all circles as "The AntiCrust".
     
  8. thegospelgeek

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    You are excused :thumbs:
     
  9. Ed Edwards

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    Consider this from post #5:


    The New Hampshire Confession [1833]

    Article XVIII. Of the World to Come [page 367, Lumpkin]

    “We believe that the end of this world is approaching: that at the last day, Christ will descend from heaven, and raise the dead from the grave to final retribution; that a solemn separation will then take place; that the wicked will be adjudged to endless punishment and the righteous to endless joy; and that this judgment will fix forever the final state of men in heaven or hell, on principles of righteousness.”


    Amen, brethern of New Hampshire -- Preach it!

    This however, does NOT say what 'last day' means. IMHO last day must take into place these verses:

    2 Pe 3:8-10 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
    Dearely beloued, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord, as a thousande yeeres, and a thousande yeeres as one day.
    9 The Lord of that promise is not slacke (as some men count slackenesse) but is pacient toward vs, and would haue no man to perish, but would all men to come to repentance.
    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thiefe in the night, in the which the heauens shall passe away with a noyse, and the elements shall melt with heate, and the earth with the workes that are therein, shalbe burnt vp.

    Rev 20:4-6 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
    And I sawe seates: and they sate vpon them, and iudgement was giuen vnto them, and I saw the soules of them that were beheaded for the witnes of Iesus, and for the word of God, and which did not worship the beast, neither his image, neither had taken his marke vpon their foreheads, or on their hand]es: and they liued, and reigned with Christ a thousand yeere.
    5 But the rest of the dead men shall not liue againe, vntill the thousand yeres be finished: this is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is hee, that hath part in the first resurrection: for on such the second death hath no power: but they shalbe the Priests of God and of Christ, and shall reigne with him a thousand yeere.

    The DAY OF THE LORD must be 1,000 of our years in length.
    There are two resurrections AT LEAST - one at the start of the DAY OF THE LORD and one at the end of the DAY OF THE LORD. These are actually 'two types of resurrection': the resurrection of the just (in Christ) and the resurrection of the un-just (not in Christ). Each type may have several occurrences.
     
  10. Palatka51

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    *Agreed.

    * No conjecture please, only scripture, thank you. In scripture there is only one occurrence of each event.
     
  11. OldRegular

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    According to Jesus Christ the last day means the last day.

    John 6:39. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    John 6:40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    John 6:54. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
    John 11:24. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
    John 12:48. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.



    Nonsense Ed. Why don't you just calculate the age of God! According to Scripture we are in the last days.

    Hebrews 1:2. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
     
  12. Ed Edwards

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    John 6:40. (Version missing, from above)
    And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 12:48 (Version missing, from above)
    He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    According to 2 Pe 3:8 (quoted in post #9 above):
    1,000 years and a day are for the Lord SAME, SAME

    According to Revelation 20:4-6 (quoted in post #9 above):
    1,000 years between the last Resurrection of type #1 (resurrection of the just /in-Christ/ ) and the first Resurrection of type #2 (resurrection of the un-just /not in-Christ/ ).

    The words direct from the Lord do NOT contradict the Word of the Lord through Peter, Paul, and John -- IMHO

    Ed Edwards: // The DAY OF THE LORD must be 1,000 of our years in length. //

    Hebrews 1:2. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; [/quote]

    Don't forget What Peter preached at the day of Pentecost (when the Holy Spirit came to the early Church:

    Act 2:16-18, 21 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
    But this is that, which was spoken by the Prophet Ioel,
    17 And it shalbe in the last daies, saith God, I wil powre out of my Spirite vpon al flesh, and your sonnes, and your daughters shall prophecie, and your yong men shall see visions, and your old men shall dreame dreames.
    18 And on my seruauntes, and on mine handmaides I will powre out of my Spirite in those daies, and they shall prophecie.
    ...
    Act 2:21 And it shalbe, that whosoeuer shall call on the Name of the Lord, shalbe saued.

    So you proved by scripture that DAY OF THE LORD is not equal
    to 'THE LAST DAYS'. However, I believe it would be safe to say that the DAY OF THE LORD equals THE LAST DAY. That is NOT the same as saying that their is one and only one 'DAY OF THE LORD'. In fact, I'll show at least four examples of 'DAY OF THE LORD (as soon as i write that essay). In general DAY OF THE LORD = a day (which of 18 definitions of 'day'?), an appropriate time, in which the Lord intercedes in the affairs of mankind.

    As implied, there is one and only one general definition of DAY OF THE LORD:

    an appropriate time, in which the Lord intercedes in the affairs of mankind

    [OldRegular]
    According to Jesus Christ the last day means the last day.
    [/quote]

    Amen, Brother OldRegular -- Preach it.

    Unfortunately for you, My dear Elder Brother OldRegular, you have no idea what 'the last day' means -- well, last day of the Lord; last day of Christ, last day of salvation, last day of human livability on the surface of planet Earth -- but you seem to have an idea of what your own personal fleshy 'last day' means. Be sure you have a Living Will in writing before you go to the hospital. It will keep your family solvent if perchance your soul departs your body before your body quits beating (with artificial help). (Actually, a living will can help others to live - if that is your will while still living).


    Ed Edwards: // These are actually 'two types of resurrection': the resurrection of the just (in Christ) and the resurrection of the un-just (not in Christ). *Each type may have several occurrences. //

    Palatka51 : // * No conjecture please, only scripture, thank you. In scripture there is only one occurrence of each event. //

    I have a written document I'm sure I will put up, an evangelistic message showing five different resurrections AND how they are different.
     
  13. OldRegular

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    In post #5 I presented the historic Baptist position on the Second Coming of Jesus Christ:

    1. It is a single event.

    2. At that time there will be a general resurrection of all the dead followed by the general judgment, consistent with John 5:28, 29.

    The question I have is what new revelation did Baptists receive that made them embrace the ideology of Darby/Scofield. Baptists have traditionally believed that the Canon of Scripture is closed with the 66 books of the Bible.

    I realize that there are some TV personalities who claim to receive a "word of knowledge" whatever that is. I realize that the Roman Catholics believe that the pope can make infallible pronouncements. However, I don't accept either of these.

    The only new revelation I have heard about is mentioned in the the following paragraph:

    Martyn Lloyd-Jones [a medical doctor and minister of the Westminister Chapel in London for 30 years] in his book, The Church and Last Things, asserts that John Darby was influenced by Edward Irving, a charismatic Scottish preacher, who established a new church in London called the Catholic Apostolic Church. As reported by Lloyd-Jones [page 138] the origin of ‘the secret rapture’ is the result of a prophetic utterance in the Catholic Apostolic Church. This utterance was supposedly in tongues, interpreted by someone and considered ‘a revelation’. There is much dispute as to whether the so-called revelation occured in Irving’s church or elsewhere and was then discovered by Irving. The origin of this ‘revelation’ has been attributed to Margaret Macdonald of Port Glasgow, Scotland. Her revelation was first published in Robert Norton's Memoirs of James & George Macdonald, of Port Glasgow (1840), pp. 171-176. Norton published it again in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets; In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861), pp. 15-18. Whether all of this is historical truth is subject to debate. However, it is apparently historical fact that there was a split within the Plymouth Bretheren as the result of Darby’s acceptance of the two event Second Coming and the ‘parenthesis church’. One truth should be evident. If the two event Second Coming is based on a revelation claimed by Margaret Macdonald, Edward Irving, or John Darby, or anyone in the Catholic Apostolic Church it is inherently false doctrine since the special revelation of God to man, the Scriptures, ceased with the Apostolic Age.

    [Anyone interested in pursuing further this ongoing debate may do so by doing an internet search of Margaret Macdonald or The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets; In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861).]
     
  14. Ed Edwards

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    [sarcasm] Amen, Elder Brother OldRegular. For half a millennium the Baptists have been hard core tied to their traditions instead of studying the Bible.[/sarcasm]

    Sorry, but I don't use the ECF (early church fathers) tradition to prove my Eschatology. I don't use RCC (roman catholic church) traditions to prove my Eschatology. I don't use Baptist traditions to prove my Eschatology. Sola Scripture - that is how I prove my Eschatology is correct.
    (one aside note, I do use modern knowledge about how non-Christians feel about things. That is not always in the Bible, anybody should know that).
     
    #14 Ed Edwards, Jan 6, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2009
  15. DeafPosttrib

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    Ed,

    I ask you question. HOW did you learned "pretribulation rapture" first time early in your life many years ago? Which you heard it first time by - Bible OR pastor??? Do you trust on pastor what he saying of 'pretrib rapture'? Pastor was ALWAYS right on 'pretrib rapture' before the Bible??

    That why, Bible tells us that, we must be beware or watch out of men's teaching might be deception or error doctrines in their own tradition doctrines with their philosophy.

    Honest, I heard "pretrib rapture" first time by through Church BEFORE Bible. I throught they were always right on 'pretrib rapture'. Till one day, in year 1992, my friends at their home, asked me to read Matt. 24:29-31 and 2 Thess. 2:1-3. I told them, "When I read verses in sign language same time, I MUST FOLLOW and AGREE with God's Word 100%." When I read and sign it same time, they hit me so hard and I was shocked and I do understood them very clear.

    That's how I left pretrib camp in 1992, because of Bible. I never back to pretrib belief again ever. Because I always stick with God's Word 100% rather than listening to any men's own words -Colossians 2:8.

    Why cannot you willijng to accept Scriptures telling us very cloear that Christ will come again at once on the last day? Are these passages or verses too hard for you read and understand?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  16. Me4Him

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    Do you know how the "Feast" and their "Rituals" apply to the NT??

    http://i25.tinypic.com/2e0mp6t.jpg

    Why is it the "Firstborn/Firstfruit" who have had the blood "applied", Literal "PASSOVER" that period of time (Trib) when the next "Death angel" will leave "NO FLESH" alive in the planet unless Jesus returns???

    And why does the Church "Spiritually" crucifies the "body of sin" to be saved while in the Trib the "body of sin" will "LITERALLY" die to be saved???

    Just what is the different between Jesus being the "Passover lamb", and being the "Scapegoat" in the "Day of Atonement" Feast?? (Trib)

    Do you think "MAYBE", your belief is based on "TOO LITTLE" information???
     
    #16 Me4Him, Jan 7, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 7, 2009
  17. DeafPosttrib

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    Me4Him,

    God knows how to deliver his righteous people, even, God can provide of his superpower protect us (Revelation 12:14) from the evil ones and his army trying to find us during persecutions. Same with Hebrews who were cover by the blood on the doorposts that they were not being catch into punish or slay. But, all Egyptians' firstfruit sons all were slay because they do not have blood cover doorposts.

    These passage of true passover story happened in Egypt have do nothing with the timing of His coming.

    Throughout Bible teaching us that we are saved by through His blood only, nothing new to us since from the Old Testament to today.

    Flood and Sodom both were perfect example of Second Coming, what happened to all unsaved people. When once Christ comes with his angels, all unsaved people will be destroyed immediately by with gathering them up in the air, and cast them away into everlasting fire. There will be no another second chance of salvation with repentance when once after Christ comes with his angels. It will be too late for them.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  18. Ed Edwards

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    Amen, Brother Me4Him -- Preach it! :thumbs:

    (Chart it? :thumbsup: )


    How about the chorus of DAY OF ELIJAH:

    Behold He comes riding on the clouds,
    Shining like the sun at the trumpet call;
    Lift your voice, it's the year of jubilee,
    And out of Zion's hill salvation comes.


    Pre-trib?
    Post-Trib Only?
    a-mill & a-trib?
    a-mill & post-trib Only?
    pre-mill & post-trib only?

    You can't tell. Popular Christian Music is for everybody - can't go splitting the congegration over Eschatology, now can we?
     
  19. Me4Him

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    From Passover to Pentecost, each event in the NT occurred on the "EXACT DATE" given for it's corresponding "feast", yet you say there is no relationship between them?? :eek:

    How does God protect his people when Satan is given power over "ALL" people, (tongues/nations)

    Where is the "exception/protection" clause in that verse??


    Have you wondered why Israel is blinded until the "fulness of the Gentiles" ?? (church rapture)

    If God wants to deal with Israel, why doesn't he go ahead and do it while Jesus is dealing with the "Church", or is there a reason he can't, and what would be that reason???


    "Leadership" by the "law and prohets", "Signs and wonders" can't function at the same time as "Leadership" by "Jesus/comforter", which Jesus said he would give "NO SIGNS", save Jonas.

    Israel won't believe without "Signs and wonders". Jews require a "sign".

    The "law and prophet" stopped with John/Jesus, (church) and won't return until the "Fulness of Jesus/church, Rapture.

    The last week of Daniel's prophecy is under the "leadership" of the "law (Moses) and "prophet" (Elijah), the Two winesses.

    The trib period is full of "signs and wonders", by both the two witnesses/false Prophet, but Jesus said "HE" wouldn't give any.

    Mt 16:1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.

    Mt 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas.

    Re 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

    The "TRINITY" doesn't just explain the "GODHEAD", it also explains the "scriptures".

    FATHER (God) Law and prophets, Signs and wonders, power on the side of the Oppressor. (No Comforter)

    SON, Jesus, Comforter/Holy Ghost, no signs and wonders, Comforter present, Oppressor power"LESS".

    Everything in scripture, from the feast to doctrine, all point to the "PRE TRIB RAPTURE" of the church,

    I wouldn't become dogmatic until I got all the "FACTS".
     
  20. OldRegular

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    Ed

    I am impressed to say the least. That puts you on par with Criswell [according to Todd White]. You are in distinguished company. Sadly you are both wrong.:tear: As noted in an above post, dispensationalism can be traced back to Darby who apparently got it from a revelation given in tongues to one Margaret MacDonald.:smilewinkgrin:
     

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