#2 Second Coming of Messiah Yeshua

Amen, Brother Me4Him -- Preach it! :thumbs:

 

Elder Brother: // The dispensational hermeneutic is supposedly literal interpretation of Scripture. Yet the most relevant and understandable passage of Scripture that teaches a general resurrection and judgment is spiritualized, and profanely splintered, by dispensationalists simply because refutes the fable that passes for dispensational doctrine.

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. //

Your mantra is getting lame.
1. the stuff you call 'dispensational' (which word, alas, has no SPELL CHECK equivalent ) is not as you suggest
2. you fail to tell us what 'literal hour' means.
3. you fail to admit that 'hour' here is NOT LITERAL but a figure of speech.
4. you fail to agree or disagree (with a good substitue) with our definition:

hour = the appropriate time

but hey! the Baptist Way is that we grant you always the right to be wrong :wavey:

BTW, Jesus said in the Garden after the first Lord's Supper:
"My hour has come"
48 HOURS Later he was dead (some say 24)
5 full days (120 hours) Later he arose from the dead

Even in the non-prophetic writings,

hour = the appropriate time

x ​

​

 

// On what basis do you say that hour is a figure of speech? //

Before I showed how John 5:28 has the good and bad resurrected in the same hour. Revelation 20 has the good and bad resurrected in the same 1,000 years.
2 Peter 3:10 has ALL FINAL EVENTS happen in the "DAY of the Lord".
'All Final events' includes the resurrection of life and the resuurection of damnation.

1 literal hour
1 literal day
1K literal years

just are NOT equal.

If one guesses one of the three different times to be 'right' and 'literal' then the other two have to be 'figure of speech'. Otherwise the Scripture meaning assigned contradicts itself. Any 'guess' as to which of the three is 'literal' causes the same problem - the other two are 'figure of speech'. So which do you believe and why? Personally I've chosen that all three are 'figure of speech'.

What is the Scriptural purpose of Prophecy? Be sure to pick a purpose that can be a 'figure of speech'.

// There is no substitute for Scripture Ed, you should know that. Yet dispensationalists have substituted the fables of man for Scripture. //

If it makes you feel any better I am NOT a dispensationalist as you define then. I have an Eschatology Doctrine that is: a non-dispie, pre-tribulation rapture2, pre-millennial dual-phase Second Coming of Messiah Jesus, futurist.

Feel free to show how you understand the truth of all three of: John 5:28-29 (hour), Revelation 20:1-7 (Millennium), 2 Peter 3:10 (Day of the Lord). So far it seems to me (I really don't believe it, but maybe so) that your solution is to just delete or ignore Revelation 20:1-7 and 2 Peter 3:10. I've seen other folks who say that 2 Peter 3:10 is right and ignore or delete Rev20 and John 5:28-29.

 

Elder Brother OldRegular speaking of Revelation 2:1-7: // In verse 20:4 we are told that the Apostle John say souls, not resurrected bodies. //

Those 'souls' had had their heads cut off. Ever figure out how you can tell a soul has had it's body's head cut off? They were 'souls' = human living resurrected bodies

Elder Brother OldRegular speaking of Revelation 2:1-7: // Then if we take this passage at "face Value" as Ryrie describes literal interpretation Verse 20:5 tells us that the first resurrection comes at the end of the 1000 years, not the beginning. //

I don't know what Ryrie says. I just know the most common meaning of Revelation 2:1-7 is that the First Resurrection is done by the beginning of the 1,000 years, not the end.

BTW, Brother Elder, God requires me to check out every scripture to see if the person cut & pasted right It would help me serve God better if you told me EVERY TIME YOU QUOTE SCRIPTURE, which translation you got it from. Thank you.


Revelation 20:4E-5 (NIV = New International Version):
They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)
This is the first resurrection.

This is quite a bit clearer than the translation you used. It notes that the people who were resurrected STARTED REIGNING and "reigned with Christ a thousand years". That resurrection is called the FIRST RESURRECTION.

BTW, to get your misunderstanding of Revelation 20:5, one needs to skip reading. Revelation 20:4 talks about two groups of people resurrected as Jesus Comes back to Earth (AKA: Day of the Lord, Second Coming). Do you see your name on either list? I hope I'm in this group (KJV) "I saw thrones, and they sate vpon them, and iudgement was giuen vnto them". But if Jesus puts me in this group, that will be fine:

(KLJV1611 Edition): "I saw the soules of them that were beheaded for the witnesse of Iesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had receiued his marke vpon their foreheads, or in their hands"

Between the two groups is a big ol' Ampersand ( & ). It is an 'and' in English - a translation from an 'Kai' in Greek.

I find 9/10s of all the variants in Eschatology built on a dozen or so 'and's. This ampersand splits out the pre-mill Second Coming People, futurist who believe in only a one working day (8 hrs) Second Coming of Christ in a post-trib only manner. This ampersand splits out the pre-mill Second Coming People, futurist who believe in a seven year, 70th Week of Daniel, Second Coming of Christ in both a pre-trib gathering of the Church Age elect saints and a post-trib gathering of the Tribulation elect saints. Here IMHO 'and' means the two groups of people are two different sets of people from two different times: The rulers from those resurrected at the beginning of the Tribulation and those resurrected bodies back with their resurrected heads resurrected at the end of the Tribulation - both resurrected at the Day of the Lord = Tribulation Period, Second Return of Christ.

I have scriptural, logical, and non-scriptural proofs off all this - but most people don't want to bother with the two years it takes to understand the matter. Why the Lord is (and has since AD 70) been coming back SOON..

BTW, most people get their elementary school arithmetic messed up:

'First' is a position term meaning: leading the rest in time, authority, importance or significance

'One' is a numbering term meaning: a single thing, person, or entity.

'One and only one' is a phrase used to add emphasis to the singularity

'First Resurrection' does not mean the same as 'one Resurrection'
Revelation 20:1-7 does NOT prove there is 'one and only one Resurrection'. But some want "first Resurrection" = 'one and only one Resurrection' to be so, that they misunderstand or deceive others into thinking they are right.

{Computer Geeks counting numbers| 0,1,2,3,4,5, ... }

So the first Computer counting number is ZERO, not ONE.

{Counting numbers for the rest of us| 1,2,3,4, ... }

The first counting number is ONE here, not ZERO)

(( both sets are infinite sets, each with NO LAST NUMBER ))

 

// A riddle for you Ed. Jesus Christ is the First Resurrection. Who are those who have part in this First Resurrection? //

Tell me your "proper exegesis of Scripture" on the text below that makes yoiur quote above correct.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is hee, that hath part in the first resurrection: for on such the second death hath no power: but they shalbe the Priests of God and of Christ, and shall reigne with him a thousand yeere.

1 Cor 15:20 quoted above (post #52):
20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Here is my writing on 5 resurrections that I want to talk about:
-----------------------------------------

\o/ Praise be to Hashem \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/​

Five Resurrections:
Found in the Holy Bible Compared and Contrasted

(last revised 30 Nov 2007,
first written in Sept 1991 -
'Contract on America' was a
political item in the election of 1992)

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Rapture1: like a Resurrection1 only of a living person.
Resurrection1: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation (Period): AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
--Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
--Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
--Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogatory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

How to get on God's list
[how resurrection #1 can get you
from #5 (Resurrection of the unjust)
to #3 (Resurrection of the just) ]:

Romans 10:9 (TNIV2006 = Today's New
International Version):

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord,"
and believe in your heart that God raised
him from the dead, you will be saved.

407 years earlier:
Romans 10:9 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the Lord Iesus,
and shalt beleeue in thine heart, that God raised him
vp from the dead, thou shalt be saued:


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints (mostly Gentiles)
I define this as Rapture2 = the pre-tribulation resurrection1 + rapture1.
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 31 Mar 2008;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints (mostly Israeli)
I define this as Resurrection2 = the post-tribulation resurrection1 + rapture1
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the end of time
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

CAVEAT: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us nor
by our understanding of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture (From the Scripture.
This is an example of how to let Scripture
interpret scripture). Note that the order:
First Fruits, Harvest, Gleanings, & Tares may
not be strictly specified in the Bible, but that
is how things are done in the real world.
Here is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the 1. Resurrection of Jesus was a precursor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just precede the resurrection
of the unjust /#5/ ).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
clearly notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarly
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

Note that at least resurrections #3 and #4 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

---------------------------

One SURE Resurrection:
Everybody will be resurrected for judgement

Two types of Resurrection:
1. resurrection of the just (in Christ) - also called FIRST RESURRECTION
2. resurrection of the unjust (not in Christ) - also implied SECOND RESURRECTION

Five resurrections at different are mentioned in the article above for it is the Plan of Salvation, written in resurrection terms.

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/​

 

Five 'and's of Eschatology
Part 5. Revelation 20:4
​

Subtitle: that separate the rapture2 from the resurrection2
(files: 5andsOFeschn.txt where n=0 to 5. File 5,
Last edited, 8Dec08)

(both the rapture2 and the resurreciton2 are part of
what Revelation 20:5 calls THE FIRST RESURRECTION.)

5. Revelation 20:4

Rev 20:4-5 (KJV1611 Edition):
And I saw thrones,
and they sate vpon them,
and iudgement was giuen vnto them:
&
I saw the soules of them that were beheaded
for the witnesse of Iesus,
and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither* his image,
neither* had receiued his marke vpon their foreheads,
or* in their hands;
and they liued and reigned with Christ a thousand yeeres.
5 But the rest of the dead liued not
againe vntill the thousand yeeres were finished.
This is the first resurrection.

*note, 'neither' is a joiner like 'and' meaning 'and not'
*note, 'or' is translated from the same root word as all the 'and's

All ten of these joiners relate or disrelate in different ways
and different phrases (the OR related two places
where the mark might be received (1) forehead
or (2) hand - two different sets of body parts
(not two different names of sets of body parts).

You can quote me as saying:

"I, Ed Edwards, believe that the '&' in Revelation 20:4-5
relates different groups of people who were
resurrected1/raptured1 at different times."

The ones on the thrones were in rapture2.
The ones beheaded were in resurrection2.
----------------------------------------------------
resurection1 is when Jesus raises groups of dead saints to life & gives them a new body

rapture1 is like a resurrection1 only with living saints

rapture2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
before the tribulation period

resurrection 2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
after the tribulation period

 

That would be better than snipping a verse from God's Word here, a chapter from the Scripture there, and whole Bibles over yonder.

 

// Not being a mathematical genius you lost me on the above. //

Tee Hee, I said in introduction // BTW, most people get their elementary school arithmetic messed up: // Of course BTW = by the way. I know when I taught Geometry in 1969 I started teaching some set theory. Set arithemetic was also being taught in Enginering school when I took in 1973-1975. I guess set theory wasn't taught to engineers 15-20 years earlier (1953-1960)?

// Ed

I can’t accept non scriptural proofs. I have been trying to tell you dispensationalists for years that dispensationalism is a fable invented by Darby, based on a New revelation given in unknown tongues to one Margaret MacDonald, and propagated in this country by Cyrus Scofield. I am glad you finally admit it. //

You contradict yourself. You say you can't accept non-scirptural proofs then you try to make one??? It would work better for you if you didn't buy line-hook-and-sinker a lying-spirit's revisionist history. Margaret MacDonald did not influence Darby, but I can't prove that from the Bible. Strange though, like a DOUBLE STANDARD - I have to prove from the Bible but you get to use secular history???

// By the way I use the KJV unless otherwise noted. //

Which KJV? I'm required by God to check each Bible quotation used on the Topics I read. I check to see if the cut & paste was done right. You have some indication when you cut and paste which KJV you are using - well, you should.