#2 The Pre-Tribulation Rapture (PRT)

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Ed Edwards, Oct 16, 2007.


How do you relate the Rapture and Tribulation?

Poll closed Feb 13, 2008.
  1. pre-tribulation rapture ONLY

  2. pre-tribulation & post tribulation raptures

  3. post-tribulation only

  4. rapture is spiritual not physical

    0 vote(s)
  5. none of the above (partial-, mid-, pre-, etc)

  6. don't know OR other (specify)

  1. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Aug 20, 2002
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    ByGracethroughFaith started the first PreTribulation Rapture (PTR)
    thread with the following Opening Post (OP)

    That thread starts on this page


    and ends on this page:


    Pre-tribulation rapture

    God has two peoples, one that makes His power known, (Israel-Descendents of Jacob), and one that makes His mercy known (Spiritual Israel-The Church-Of the seed of Abraham). The very existence of the nation of Israel today, along with the existence of Spiritual Israel is the greatest visible proof of this. This re-emergence of Israel as a nation after 19 centuries proves that God is not finished with Israel just yet. Now there are some people who belonged to both, like David and Paul, there are others who only belonged to one, like King Ahab (Israel) or Cornelius (Spiritual Israel). God manifests His physical power on earth via Israel, and God manifests His spiritual power on earth through Spiritual Israel. Be sure never to confuse the two. Temporal blessing was promised to Israel for obedience, whereas grace in trial and tribulation is the promise to Spiritual Israel.

    The tribulation period is a period of God’s wrath. Spiritual Israel is never appointed unto God’s wrath (1 Th 5:9), the wrath of man yes, the chastisement of God yes, but the wrath of God no! The tribulation is not meant to be a time of chastisement, it is to be a time where the wrath of God is unleashed, and yet this is even done in love. This would be what is considered the final threshing of man to get the very last kernels of wheat, for God will lose none that are His. When God unfolds His wrath, there is no need for Him to inflict it on those that are already His, simply because they are ALREADY His. The great threshing is to reach those who have refused the offer of grace in a time of ease. Nothing hardens like prosperity, so nothing softens like judgment. Having been softened by the wooing of the Saviour, the tribulation for the already saved serves no purpose, the Lord has already sifted them before the tribulation and found them to be wheat. We also know that God delivers the godly and reserves the unjust for the day of judgment (2 Pet 2:9). The martyrs had many trials and yet through them suffered no wrath from God, but only His mercies (Isa 57:1), even in burning to death their pain was abated. It is those who have rejected God and especially the mercy of His Son (Heb 10:28-29) that He has reserved His wrath for; where the pain is so severe they wish to die and yet are unable to (Rev 9:6), or the fear so great they must hide (Rev 6:15-16).

    Before going further, I must address the partial rapture view. It is erroneous, and the very statement connotes a works based righteousness. Those whom Christ delivers, He delivers in full, not just the better ones, not just the over achievers, He delivers ALL of them that are His. If at any point the deliverance is by any other means than the blood of Christ then you can know the doctrine is false. These types of schemes are devised as a means to attempt to deal with the ‘vomitable unsaved pretenders’ without having to say they are not saved. Since Christ said it, we ought not have any problem with owning up to that fact either. These VUP’s are a haughty bunch, who give Christ much lip service, but none to worry, He will not own them as His.

    Who are these wretches you might ask? Apostates, and just who are apostates?

    People think of apostasy of a person turning apostate, and losing their salvation, not so. Apostasy is a thorough working of error throughout a whole generation, so much so that those who think they know God wouldn’t even recognize Him. When Christ came the first time, the visible Jewish church did not recognize Him, and even crucified the Lord of Glory; at the time of Christ’s second coming the visible gentile church as a whole, will be in the same condition. Sure there will be the odd ones saved here and there, just like Nicodemus from the Jewish church, but the apostasy will have worked through so thoroughly that people will be entirely deceived. Because of this deception God pulls the bearing of the gospel from the visible Gentile church, and puts it back in the hands of the descendents of Jacob (Rev 7:3-8) for Daniel’s seventieth week.

    It is fine to talk about things in general, but specifics are usually where the rubber hits the road. I am going to use the Superbowl for an example. It is a heathen abomination that desecrates the Lord’s Day, and yet many who profess to be Christ’s have no higher desires for their soul that day than to partake of this abomination. Is it possible for these people to be saved? Possibly, but at least we know one thing, that whatever their lips say, there is no thirst for Christ in their hearts. And that is definitely not a good thing. I could go on, but suffice to say, apostasy works through the whole just like leaven, and leaves no area untouched.

    That apostasy is here today. Unbelievers invaded the seminaries in the early 1900’s, and started producing pastors with doubts of various kinds, in turn these pastors passed these doubts on to the congregations, and ran the cycle a couple times until now we have a visible church of which the major majority are entirely devoid of the Spirit. They talk of God’s blessing them in their homes, and of fine ‘Christian experiences’, but as a whole their desires are not right. I ask you, during the day, all day, where do your thoughts gravitate to? Summer vacations, TV programs, sports, new car, etc; or do they gravitate to holy things like the person and work of Christ, communion with him through prayer, and the slaying of sin in yourself? You can be sure if it is the former that the apostasy has worked its way through you.

    People in this apostate condition, though professing Christ are yet without Him, they are unsaved. These people will enter the tribulation. Let me be clear here, not one of those who are saved will enter the tribulation period, only the apostates. Though others will be saved during this time, the apostates having had access to the gospel through God’s word, and yet explained it away, will in all likelihood not have a second chance because of the strong delusion of God (2 The 2:10-12).

    The rider on the white horse in Rev 6:2 is the imitation christ more commonly known as the Antichrist. As an imitator, he does just that, comes in the guise of peace (white horse), and yet war is in his heart (bow). The imitation christ will draw many after himself, setting up the one world government/church/commercial system. At the beginning, this system will attempt to imitate the setting up of the millennial reign of Christ on earth, however mayhem in the skies from the Lord on high, will convince people that this is not the case. Through their ties with the government, the Harlot church comprised of 1 part Roman Catholicism, 1 part apostate Christianity, and 1 part other world religions, will be able to hand out the mark of the beast. To borrow a DL Moody phrase, 'I have an idea' those in the apostate Christianity will gladly receive the mark from their apostate pastor or elder where they would never have thought of receiving it from a government servant. It will be through the sleight of hand with replacement theology and conditioning by other such erroneous eschatology, that apostate Christianity will receive the mark of the beast on their foreheads in an attempt to be saved from the wrath of God (Rev 7:3-4). I figure all this will be part of the strong delusion in 2 The 2:10-12.

    I probably went too far already, but for brevity sake I had to stop here.

  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Aug 20, 2002
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    Here is my discussion of the pre-tribulation rapture (PTR)
    proof in 1 Thess chapters 4&5 and 2 Thess chapter 2,
    rewritten for this new topic:

    The Thessalonians were familiar with
    this saying of Jesus which we now find
    recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

    But he that shall endure unto
    the end, the same shall be saved.

    But some said of their friend "He got
    sick and died before Jesus came to
    get him, poor soul -- he didn't endure
    to the end."

    Paul addresses this problem in
    a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
    one of the most comforting passages in the

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

    13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
    brethren, concerning those who have fallen
    asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
    have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
    rose again, even so God will bring with Him
    those who sleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
    that we who are alive and remain until
    the coming of the Lord will by no means
    precede those who are asleep.
    16 For the Lord Himself will descend
    from heaven with a shout, with the voice
    of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
    And the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain
    shall be caught up (LATIN: raptured)
    together with them in the clouds to meet
    the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
    always be with the Lord
    18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

    5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
    brethren, you have no need that I should
    write to you.
    2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
    the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
    in the night.
    3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
    then sudden destruction comes upon them,
    as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
    And they shall not escape.
    4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
    so that this Day should overtake
    you as a thief.
    5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
    We are not of the night nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
    but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
    and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
    8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
    putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
    and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
    9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation through our
    Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
    we should live together with Him
    11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
    one another
    , just as you also are doing.

    I've underlined a command to comfort each
    other with these things. I personally don't see how
    we can comfort each other with 'Jesus is going to
    come get us at the end of the Tribulation period'.
    So I use 'Jesus is going to come get us at the end of
    the age which is before the Tribulation Period starts.

    Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
    had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
    in a second letter:

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

    1 Now, brethren, concerning
    the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    and our gathering together to Him,
    we ask you
    2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
    either by spirit or by word or by letter,
    as if from us, as though the day of Christ
    had come
    3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
    for that Day will not come unless
    the falling away comes first,
    and the man of sin
    is revealed, the son of perdition,

    I underlined "our gathering together to Him,
    we ask you
    " in verse 1 and
    the falling away comes first.
    The second is the only mention of the first
    in the rest of the chapter.

    The falling away that comes first
    is the Rapture!
    Then the man of sin is revealed, the
    antichrist. Then the Tribulation period

    While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
    English versions before the KJV used a
    form of "departure" - again, the idea of
    someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
    Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
    not come, except there come a departing first, and that
    that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

    There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
    the rapture.
    Here are some things that could happen
    before the rapture but they do NOT
    have to happen.

    1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
    2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
    (the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
    Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
    Millinnial Kingdom period)
    3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
    on Mount Moriah north of and alongside
    the Dome of the Rock. This Temple may
    be built according to Ezekiel chapters 40-44
    (Ed notes this time that most other
    rapture/trib theories don't explain Ezekiel
    chapters 40-44 physically so it has to describe
    some heavenly or New Jerusalem temple
    -- tee hee complete with animal sacrifices)

    But again, these things do not HAVE
    TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
    happen after the rapture; they could happen
    before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
    HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
  3. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
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    May 7, 2006
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    HP: What? And just where do you find this bit of information?
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Aug 20, 2002
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    Revelation 4-19 talks about the Tribulation Period
    (at least the parts on earth, some scenes are in heaven)

    Here are the verses that mention the Wrath of God:

    1. This verse shows that after the Tribulation Period
    those who take the mark of the Beast (Mob)
    will receive the Wrath of God (WoG)
    probably in some hell (This isn't in the Tribulation Period
    itself but happens to people in the Tribulation

    Rev 14:9-10 (KJV1611 Edition)
    And the third Angel followed them, saying with a lowd voice,
    If any man worship the beast and his image,
    and receiue his marke in his forehead, or in his hand,
    10 The same shall drinke of the wine of the wrath of God,
    which is powred out without mixture
    into the cup of his indignation,
    and hee shall be tormented with fire and brimstone,
    in the presence of the holy Angels, and in the presence of the Lambe:

    Here is the winepress of the Wrath of God
    poured out on earth during the Tribulation Period:

    Revelation 14:19-20 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And the Angel thrust in his sickle into the earth,
    and gathered the vine of the earth, & cast it
    into the great winepresse of the wrath of God.
    20 And the winepresse was troden
    without the citie, and blood came out
    of the winepresse, euen vnto the horse bridles,
    by the space of a thousand and sixe hundred furlongs.

    Here are the seven last plagues: the wrath
    of God on the earth during the Tribulation Period:

    Rev 15:1 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And I saw another signe in heauen great and marueilous,
    seuen Angels hauing the seuen last plagues,
    for in them is filled vp the wrath of God.

    Here are the seven last vials the wrath
    of God on the earth during the Tribulation Period:

    Rev 15:7 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And one of the foure beasts gaue vnto the seuen Angels,
    seuen golden vials, full of the wrath of God,
    who liueth for euer and euer.

    Rev 16:1 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And I heard a great voyce out of the Temple,
    saying to the seuen Angels, Goe your wayes,
    and powre out the vials of the wrath of God vpon the earth.

    Here is the last final earthquake of the Tribulation
    Period on earth: "the cup of the wine of the fiercenesse of his wrath"

    Rev 16:19 And the great Citie was diuided into three parts, and the Cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to giue vnto her the cup of the wine of the fiercenesse of his wrath.
    Rev 16:20 And euery yland fled away, and the mountaines were not found.

    (do not confuse with the major earthquake all over
    the world in the last part of Chapter 6 -
    it just shakes islands & mountains - this
    change the Google Map of the Earth big-time.

    Here is the wrath of Almighty God being treading
    the ones left on the earth on
    the last 48-hour day of the Tribulation Period:

    Rev 19:14-5 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And the armies which were in heauen followed
    him vpon white horses, clothed in fine linnen,
    white and cleane.
    15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharpe sword,
    that with it hee should smite the nations:
    and he shal rule them with a rod of yron:
    and he treadeth the winepresse of the fiercenesse
    and wrath of Almighty God.
  5. Helen

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    Aug 29, 2001
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    Revelation 16 should help....although this is specifically the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation.
  6. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
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    HP: There is a world of difference between calling the ‘last half of the tribulation period the ‘wrath of God’ and just calling the tribulation period as a whole the wrath of God. To take a verse that says that God’s children are not appointed to wrath, and extrapolate that to suggest that a pre-tribulational rapture must in fact be the case, is simply unfounded conjecture.
  7. BobRyan

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    Aug 27, 2002
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    #1. There is no 3 1/2 year period mentioned in Rev 16.

    #2. Rev 16 - IT is the 7 last plagues - but just Israel was in Egypt for all 10 of the plagues - so the saints are on earth (here is the patience of the saints.. Rev 14:12) for the entire period until that ONE singular event (Rev 19-20:5) that ALL saints are focused on 1Peter 1:13.

    #3. Christ said "IF I GO away ... I will COME AGAIN and RECEIVE you to Myself" John 14.

    ONE going away - ONE coming AGAIN!

    In each area where the PTR view tries to get help from scripture - it failed as we saw in the previous thread.

    Summary of problems for PTR -

    Note the PTRr challenges --

    - Rev 20 1000 is not actually one thousand years it is 1007

    - Rev 20:4-5 “ First Resurrection ” is not really the first resurrection event -- but the second first resurrection.

    - Dan 9 Contiguous timeline (490 years) has have to be sliced up

    - Matt 24 "AFTER the Trib.. he will gather his elect" has to be "reworked" in Matt 24.

    - John 14 "IF I go go -- I WILL come again" John 14:1-3 -- ONE leaving and ONE return have to be sliced into ONE leaving and MULTIPLE returns.

    - 2Thess 2 “That day WILL NOT COME until the apostacy and man of sin is revealed” (Speaking of “our GATHERING together to HIM”)

    Millennium facts:

    1. The saints are raptured (John 14:1-3, 1Thess 4, 2Thess 2:1-3, Matt 24)

    2. the wicked left and destroyed according to Rev 19 "THE REST were SLAIN".

    3. In Matt 24 we see the saints gathered to Christ AFTER the "Great Tribulation" so "I get that".

    IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days … He shall gather His elect..."
    #7 BobRyan, Oct 17, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 17, 2007
  8. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Aug 20, 2002
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    Please describe that world.
    I believe that the whole Tribulation Period of 7=years is

    1. The first half is wrath of God lite
    2. The second half is wrath of God (unmixed, i.e. heavy)

    Christians elect saints will NOT suffer the wrath of God.
    Jewish/Israeli elect saints will be protected by God
    in the Wilderness from the wrath of God. - see Rev 12.

    I'll make dozens of you 'unfounded conjecture's and they
    all extrapolate to the pre-tribulational rapture preceeded immediately
    by a pre-tribulational rapture.

    Anyway, it isn't about proof - it is about hope.
    I have faith that Jesus will come get me personally someday.
    I hope it is in the pre-tribulation rapture;
    I have faith in Jesus that He will come get me
    in the pre-tribulation resurrection.
    But I will in no wise be disappointed if Jesus doesn't
    come get me until after the Tribulation Period
    at the Coming of Jesus in Power & Glory to defeat the
    Antichrist & set up a physical Millennial Messanic Kingdom.
  9. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Aug 20, 2002
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    Each challenge you have listed has been shown
    to NOT be a challenge at all. The correct understanding
    of the Bible shows that each of your challenges to the PTR is
    your OWN PERSONAL OPINION and not what
    the Bible is saying.

    There are six of these challenges in an early poost
    in this topic. I've numbered them for reference only.
    All of them may not be in this post, depending on
    the time I have to make my points more fully (i.e. longer).

    What I said is that the Tribulation Period is
    seven years in length, the 70th 'week' of Daniel (see Daniel 9);
    the pretribulation rapture/resurrection is at the start
    of the week/day; the post-tribulation rapture/resurrection
    is on the last day of the week. After the
    post-tribulation rapture/resurrection Jesus sets up the
    Millennial Messanic Kingdom which is 1000 years long.
    Of course, if one wants to add 1,000 men in a Roman Empire 'army'
    to the 7 wonders of the world, one can get a meaningless
    number of '1007'.

    Your wording. The first resurrection has two parts
    LIKE a two pronged fork is ONE FORK.
    'First' doesn't have to mean 'ONE AND ONLY'.
    Revelation 20:4 denotes two groups of people
    (some say three). I believe these two groups
    in Revelation 20:4 are the Pre-tribulation rapture group
    (the Church Age elect saints /mostly gentiles/
    and the post-trilbulation rapture group (mostly
    Jewish/Israeli elect saints.

    I make no apology for God slicing up the Daniel 9
    Contiguous timeline. He divides it up into a 7 week
    period followed by a 62 week period followed by
    a one week period (AKA: Daniel's 70th week).

    If at the end of the 69 weeks many Jews had accepted
    Jesus as their Messiah, then the 70th week would have
    been held - Antichrist, Tribulation Period, and all.
    But many Jews did not accept JEsus as their Messiah
    so God went out to save a lot of gentiles -
    2007-30 = 1,973 years so far a break - break called the
    'fullness of the Gentiles' in the Bible.

    Rom 11:25 (KJV1611 Edition):
    For I would not, brethren, that ye should bee ignorant
    of this mysterie (least yee should bee wise in your
    owne conceits) that blindnesse in part
    is happened to Israel, vntill the fulnes of the Gentiles
    be come in.

    #9 Ed Edwards, Oct 17, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 17, 2007
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Aug 20, 2002
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    Another error many post-Tribulation rapture/resurrection ONLY
    folk make is to think that Romans 11 is about individual
    salvation. Romans 11 defines God's wonderful plan for
    SAVING all the Jewish/Israeli elect saints AFTER God
    gets done saving a maximum number of Gentiles.
    Romans 11 has nothing to do with OSAS = once saved,
    always saved, for individuals.

    Romans 11 seperates the first 69 Weeks of Daniel
    and the 70th Week of Daniel - the age of the Gentiles,
    time of the Gentiles, Church Age, Age of Grace are
    some names put on this continuing period.
    The signs of this period are specified in Matthew
    24:4-14 - these signs continue & mark the coutinuation
    of the Age of the Gentiles. If peace breaks out -
    watch out, Antichrist is coming soon.
  11. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Aug 20, 2002
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    Note the 'reworking' done in accordance with
    the Holy Scripture: Matthew 24:3 gives the outline of
    the pre-parable message in Matthew 24-25.

    Ed's Pretribulation view of Matthew 24
    This may vary from some other pretribs' views. They
    tend to put Matthew 24:31 in as gathering of
    Jews only which takes place at the end of the
    Tribulation). But then they don't end up with
    why Matthew 24:4-14 describe the current age,
    the Age of Gentiles. The pretribulation rapture
    is without sign, Matthew 24:4-14 is the signs of
    the continuing Age of the Gentiles, not the signs
    of His coming back in Power and Glory (that signs
    of that are THE TRIBULATION PERIOD).
    This is the only theory I've heard that explains all
    of that. I find this view is rejected by many because
    they don't know what 'first' means, what 'and'
    means, what a Physical/Literal Retorical Divise is, like
    the Polysyndeton.

    Here is a pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church,
    pre-Millinnial Return of Christ,
    Futurist understanding of Matthew 24.

    In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
    ask three questions:

    (in the order asked):
    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    3. What is the sign of the end of age?

    Jesus answers these questions in
    Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
    some parables in Matthew 24:45 through Matthew 25..

    Here are the answers of Jesus in the
    order the questions were asked:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    Here is a summary of the answers
    in the order in which events will occur
    (not in the order in which the questions were asked):

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Soon, it was in 70AD

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    No signs preceeding the end of the age

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    The Sign of His coming will be the
    Tribulation period.

    Recall the Greek language in which this
    Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
    did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
    So many ands, buts, and other connectors
    give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
    (in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
    instead of an outline. This is most noticable
    in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
    I believe the major outline to be:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
    Rapture/resurrection which ends the
    current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
    last days, etc.)

    Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
    church age even up to this time.
    Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
    The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
    that the church age continues.
  12. Agnus_Dei

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    Oct 10, 2006
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    It’s comforting for me, an Orthodox Catechumen, to know the beliefs of the Orthodox Church are basic. We confess with conviction that Jesus Christ “will come again to judge the quick and the dead”, and that His “kingdom will have no end”.

    Orthodox preaching does not attempt to predict God's prophetic schedule, but instead to encourage Christian people to have their lives in order so that they might be confident before Christ when He does comes (I John 2:28).

    St. John saw many strange things in his Revelation, but none as strange as his interpreters. G. K. Chesterton
  13. FriendofSpurgeon

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    Feb 24, 2003
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    I think that most Christian churches do not hold to a particular eschatology and I find it interesting (sad perhaps?) that others make it such a bone of contention.

    Like you and most Christians, we hold to the same conviction (so much that we profess that most every Sunday!).
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Aug 20, 2002
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    Revelation 6:12 (quoted elsewhere)
    I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became

    black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the

    earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a

    scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And

    the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and

    every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the

    mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from

    the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”//

    Oops, this isn't parallel to the Second Advent of Jesus event
    (Matthew 24:29-30) nor the pretribualtion rapture (Matthew 24:31).
    It describes something that STARTS the Tribulation Period.

    Compare this with the earthquake at the end of the Tribulation Period:

    Rev 16:17-21 (KJV1611 Edition):

    And the seuenth Angel powred out his viall into the ayre, and there came a great voyce out of the

    Temple of heauen, from the throne, saying, It is done.
    Rev 16:18 And there were voices and thunders, and lightnings: and there was a great earthquake, such

    as was not since men were vpon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
    Rev 16:19 And the great Citie was diuided into three parts, and the Cities of the nations fell: and great

    Babylon came in remembrance before God, to giue vnto her the cup of the wine of the fiercenesse of

    his wrath.
    Rev 16:20 And euery yland fled away, and the mountaines were not found.
    Rev 16:21 And there fell vpon men a great haile out of heauen, euery stone about the weight of a

    talent, and men blasphemed God, because of the plague of the hayle: for the plague thereof was

    exceeding great.

    In Rev 6 every "mountain ... was moved out of its place";
    but in Rev 16 "the mountaines were not found".

    In Rev 6 every "island was moved out of its place";
    but in Rev 16 "euery yland fled away".

    While the Revelation 6 earthquake is like a magniture 7.0 earthquake
    one million places on earth at the same time
    (force 13.0) the Revelation 16 earthquake is at least
    1,000 times worse (force 16.0).

    The wrath of the Lamb begins in Revelation 6 at the beginning of
    the Tribulation period: the wrath of God is described in Revelation
    16-18 near the end of the Tribulation period. The Living Church of the Living Christ
    gathered before that earthquake will NOT suffer through
    the 'wrath of the Lamb' NOR the 'wrath of God'.

    Tribulation Period = (Wrath) the light 'wrath of God' on sinners
    Great Tribualtion Period = (Wrathier) the heavy 'wrath of God' on sinners
    Eternal Hell Fire = (Wrathiest) 'wrath of God' on sinners
  15. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Jul 31, 2004
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    As I have posted on the other thread, I don't care what the Vulgate says in 1Thess4:17. The Greek means the saints living and resurrected with Jesus' Coming will be seized together in clouds - in awe and while being changed and receiving incorruptibility - will be seized together while meeting the Lord as He comes in the air, to this earth, as He promised and we shall see Him as He is. Words cannot really describe it, so Paul says, we shall be "seized all in clouds" in wonderment. 'Rapture' is wrong. If anywhere else in Scripture one could find just one more indication in that direction, it could have been worth a second thought. But there is only the one awe-inspiring "CLOUD OF WITNESS" of the Scriptures of the single unrepeatable once for all Coming Again of Christ.
  16. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Jul 31, 2004
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    Can anyone on this thread tell me where I can find Tyndale's translation on the web -- I see some old English quotes.
  17. Matt Black

    Matt Black
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    Feb 25, 2003
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    Ditto what Agnus said; I accordingly voted "don't know"; I might have added "and don't particularly care".

    [ETA - GE, Ask and ye shall receive!]
    #17 Matt Black, Oct 18, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2007
  18. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Jul 31, 2004
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    I'll tell you where a lot of nonsense starts, is where people place 'The 7 Last Plagues' before the Advent, while it belongs after it because 'The 7 Last Plagues' are just another yet real picture-description of the judgments of God upon the wicked, or of their 'hell'.
  19. BobRyan

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    Aug 27, 2002
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    Is Revelation part of God's Word? 2Thess2? 1Thess 4? Matt 24?

    Is God saying "hey you don't really need to read this part of the Bible -- but if you do -- just believe whatever you please"??

    In other words - when you read that book and those chapters -- do they appear in the form "optional reading -- for those who just wanna know and just think they gotta know"?

    In Matt 24 Christ compares the ending events for this world in the same way as the ending events in the days of Noah.

    So in the days of Noah -- was it really all that important to figure out if Noah's escatology was really better than everybody else's?

    in Christ,

  20. BobRyan

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    Aug 27, 2002
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    All salvation is "individual" the Gospel does not work any other way.

    Churches are not "saved" denominations are not "saved" and nations are not "saved" rather Individuals are.

    in Romans 9 Paul makes it clear that IN HIS writings the term "Israel" does not refer to literal nation when speaking of the saved - but rather believers in the "promises". Exegesis demands that we pay attention to the author's definitions for his own words.


    Romans 11 makes no reference at all to slicing up Daniel's 69 weeks. In fact the 69 weeks of Daniel are contiguous IN the whole 70 week timeline just as ALL TIMELINES in scripture are contiguous -- yes even the 70 years of Dan 9:1-3.

    Romans 11 makes no reference to 7 years or 483 years.

    No reference in Romans 11 to "age of the gentiles"

    What we DO see in Romans 11 is BOTH Jews AND Gentiles grafted into the ONE tree as ONE -- as ONE Israel.

    For as Paul said in Romans 9 "they are not all Israel who are children of the flesh... but rather children of the promise".

    Romans 2 points out the same conditions for "both Jews and Gentiles".

    Romans 9 points out the same grace for both "Jews and Gentiles".

    Romans 11 points out the same conditions for persevering in faith for both "Jews and Gentiles".

    in Christ,


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