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#2 The Pre-Tribulation Rapture (PRT)

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Ed Edwards, Oct 16, 2007.

?
  1. pre-tribulation rapture ONLY

    33.3%
  2. pre-tribulation & post tribulation raptures

    9.1%
  3. post-tribulation only

    30.3%
  4. rapture is spiritual not physical

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. none of the above (partial-, mid-, pre-, etc)

    21.2%
  6. don't know OR other (specify)

    6.1%
  1. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Has to do with and escalogical discussion being popular
    with both the a-mill post-tribs and the pre-mill post-tribs.
    So we have two groups of post-tribs that usually don't
    even talk together. Bad poll on my part. I'll spice up
    #3 when we get there ;)
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Early Tribulation Writing:

    (previously writ)

    Revelation 6:10-11 (KJV1611):
    And they cried with a lowd voice, saying, How long,
    O Lord, holy and true, doest thou not iudge and
    auenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
    11 And white robes were giuen vnto euery one
    of them, and it was sayd vnto them, that they
    should rest yet for a little season, vntill
    their fellow seruants also, and their brethren
    that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    Matthew 24:21-22 (KJV1611):
    For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not
    since the beginning of the world to this time,
    no, nor euer shall be.
    22 And except those dayes should be shortned,
    there should no flesh be saued: but for the elects sake,
    those dayes shall be shortned
    .

    These are parallel passages.
    Both show early in the tribulation day
    those born-again, mostly gentile, church age,
    Christian elect saints who were raptured/resurrected
    at the dawn of the tribulation day. They are talking
    to Jesus (praying face-to-face) about the Jewish
    Israeli elect saints who won't pray to God.
     
  3. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Makes sense if one is
    an Idealist (the prophecies of the Bible are to be discerned spiritually)
    an a-mill (there is a spiritual Millinnial Messanic Kingdom /no physical/)
    and an a-trib (tribulation & rapture pertains to individuals, not groups).

    But I don't recall that any of my CoC friends bought
    into that. I took a 2-credit-hour College Course
    on Paul /public College/ taught by a CoC Preacher.
    I've sit in lots of folding chairs & watched CoC
    Preacher's overhead projections
    in the east central part of Oklahoma, the
    south central part of Oklahoma (a guy I graduated with
    from High School was the pastor), and
    in the Seattle area. Come to think of it, I'm not sure
    much Eschatology was taught?
     
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    [quotae=BobRyan
    Depends on how much license you are interested
    in taking with the text of Rev 20:4-5 where we
    are told that those who are brought to life
    have ALREADY given their life for Christ
    and
    that this happens after the Rev 19 event
    of the appearing of Christ.
    [/quote]

    I really don't know if 'this' (bolded) pertains
    to "those who are brought to life"
    or to "have ALREADY given their life for Christ".

    In any case, wouldn't it just be easier to say the
    following instead of complicating everything?

    "I, BobRyan, believe that the '&' in Revelation 20:4-5
    related two names for the same group of people."


    Rev 20:4-5 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And I saw thrones,
    and they sate vpon them,
    and iudgement was giuen vnto them:
    &
    I saw the soules of them that were beheaded
    for the witnesse of Iesus,
    and for the word of God,
    and which had not worshipped the beast,
    neither* his image,
    neither* had receiued his marke vpon their foreheads,
    or* in their hands;
    and they liued and reigned with Christ a thousand yeeres.
    5 But the rest of the dead liued not
    againe vntill the thousand yeeres were finished.
    This is the first resurrection.

    (did anybody bother to read my discussion in
    #1 about the ten 'and*'s in Rev 20:4?

    *note, 'neither' is a joiner meaning 'and not'
    *note, 'or' is translated from the same root word as all the 'and's

    All ten of these joiners relate or disrelate in different ways
    and different phrases (the OR related two places
    where the mark might be received (1) forehead
    or (2) hand - two different sets of body parts
    (not two different names of sets of body parts).

    You can quote me as saying:

    "I, Ed Edwards, believe that the '&' in Revelation 20:4-5
    relates different groups of people who were
    resurrected1/raptured1 at different times."

    The ones on the thrones were in rapture2.
    The ones beheaded were in resurrection2.
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Ed - I am more than happy to quote you as saying that Rev 20:4-5 is describing "Rapture 2 and Resurrection 2"

    By contrast - I "Bob believe FIRST resurrection speaks to resurrection1" not "resurrection2"

    And there we have our difference as clearly contrasted as I can get it.

    It is left as an exercise for the unbiased objective reader to read the text for themselves and decide.

    Revelation 20


    4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to lifeand reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


    5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.[/b]
    6
    Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.


    But I have to ask the following questions -

    1. Do all agree that the one and only place the term "first resurrection" is used in all of scripture is Rev 20:4-5? Yes?

    2. Do all agree that to get "first resurrection" to mean "resurrection2" you have to do it in spite of the language in the text saying "first resurrection"?? Basically have have to come to the text already 'wanting' to read "SECOND resurrection" to fit "resurrection2", then upon finding that it is not there -- you have to "settle" for making some kind of convoluted argument that "First Resurrection" is some kind of Bible proven way to really say "resurrection2".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #45 BobRyan, Oct 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2007
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    // By contrast - I "Bob believe FIRST resurrection
    speaks to resurrection1" not "resurrection2"//

    Actually, you do.
    Obviously you read the definitions before you made
    statements using them.

    Recall though, that FIRST can but doesn't always have
    to do with one.

    // And there we have our difference as clearly
    contrasted as I can get it.//

    Thank you for joining me in being exactly
    precise. Recall though, that some folk
    who are too literal for their own good
    -- they won't let metaphors be metaphors
    or similies be similies.


    Work in process:

    ------------------------------------------
    Five Bible 'and's that seperate
    the rapture2 from the resurrection2


    (both the rapture2 and the resurreciton2 are part of
    what Revelation 20:5 calls THE FIRST RESURRECTION.)

    The first resurrection conists of these two events:

    rapture2 - a resurrection1 followed shortly by
    a rapture1 before the Tribulation Period
    (many pre-mill, post-tribs deny a 'rapture2' exists
    but think a 'rapture1 exists).
    (this I frequently call 'a rapture/resurrection
    in my old writings)

    resurrection2 - a resurrection1 followed shortly by
    a rapture1 before the Tribulation Period
    (this I call generally this in my old writings:
    the 'Second Coming of Jesus
    in power & Glory, or just 'Second Advent', etc.)

    rapture1 - an event held by Jesus where the living saints
    get new eternal bodies like Jesus' body.

    resurrection1 - an event held by Jesus where dead saints
    get new eternal bodies like Jesus' body.

    1. Matthew 24:3
    Mat 24:3 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And as he sate vpon the mount of Oliues,
    the Disciples came vnto him priuately,
    saying, Tell vs, when shall these things be?
    And what shall be the signe of thy coming,
    AND (what shall be the signe) of the end of the world?
    -------------------------------------
    To be completed:

    2. Matthew 24:29-31
    3. 2 Thess 2:1
    4. Titus 2:13
    5. Revelation 20:4
     
    #46 Ed Edwards, Oct 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2007
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    No :) 'first resurrection' appears in Revelation 20:6

    So just change a 5 in your statement to 6 and
    you have it. What 'first' means is the subject of
    discussion.
     
  8. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    I think you made a mistake somehow. "The First Resurrection" is in fact mentioned in Rv20:6. The First Resurrection is also very clearly defined and explained in verse 6, yes, by verse 6 and the whole of it - verse 6, is, The First Resurrection. Maybe it is faith that causes one to see it. I don't know what would make one see it as something else.
     
  9. Agnus_Dei

    Agnus_Dei New Member

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    I'm not going to pick sides here, Revelation is tough enough to read on its own, muchless to try and interpret.

    But just out of curiousity GE, what makes you think that you have more faith than Ed, therefore you see the truth more clearly?

    ICXC NIKA
    -
     
  10. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    GE

    Let us hear if Ed thinks I think I have more faith than he has, Ed?
    I can't help smiling ...

    And yes, Rv is tough the tougher you make it. The plainer you make it the easier it gets 'to interpret'. Golden rule: It is "The Revelation of Jesus Christ". I always ask myself the question (this now is for my own profit, I'm not preaching - you can do what you like with this bit of 'advice'.) I always ask myself the question, Have I now really found Jesus in this text through my interpretation? Or Have I now really found Jesus in the interpretation (of another) I have been studying? If I could honestly say, yes, and easily, and inevitably, and exclusively, Bingo! It's the right interpretation! Second question: Do I notice a political flavour in what I have been trying out as an interpretation -- something humanistic, philosophic, speculative, scientific? Trash bin!
     
  11. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    "... what makes you think that you have more faith than Ed, therefore you see the truth more clearly?"

    GE
    Let's leave the first clause, and consider the next only, What would make me think that I see the truth more clearly? Only what would make anyone see the truth more clearly - Look man, look, and read, literally. Read verse 6 -- it -not I- tells you the truth what The First Resurrection is. It's no use I try tell you other things than the thing itself. Verse 6 tells you, and the verses before it, and after it. Just read, and forget everything else.

    Now I am not ashamed to say I see the truth clearly of what The First Resurrection is - better than anyone else who does not see and read it literally from verse 6 itself. Would you be ashamed to say you understand it better than anyone for just reading the Word while others don't?
     
  12. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Gerhard Ebersoehn speaking of Revelation chapter 20:
    //Read verse 6 -- it -not I- tells you the truth
    what The First Resurrection is. It's no use
    I try tell you other things than the thing itself.
    Verse 6 tells you, and the verses before it,
    and after it. Just read, and forget everything else.//

    Sorry, I've read the whole rest of the Bible dozens of
    times, some places hundreds. I am NOT likely
    to forget what I read -- I should remember the
    scriptures I read before -- the scriptures I read
    before illuminate the one I'm reading now.

    I look up 'protos' (usuallyl 'first' ) in the ancient Greek/modern
    English Dictionary - I find NO mention of the
    concept 'one and only one' or even 'one'.
    I look up 'first" in the today's English dictioinary
    and the concept 'one and only one' is NOT
    associated with all the meetings.

    The phrase 'FIRST RESURRECTION'
    in Revelation 20:5-6 does not preclude
    there from being more than one general
    resurreciton of the saints.

    Here is an evangelistic message about Five Resurrections:
    Note the differences that distinguish each.
    Feel free to write an evangelistic message
    about your favorite dash-Tribulation/Rapture
    arrangement and post it here.

    ----------------------------------
    \o/ Praise be to Hashem \o/

    \o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

    \o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/
    Five Resurrections:

    (last revised 6 Oct 2007,
    first written in Sept 1991 -
    'Contract on America' was a
    political item in the election of 1991)
    Found in the Holy Bible
    Compared and Contrasted

    The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

    Definitions:

    New Testament: God's contract on goy
    Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
    Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
    Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
    Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
    --Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
    --Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
    --Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
    Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
    goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogatory)
    Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

    How to get on God's list
    [how resurrection #1 can get you
    from #5 (Resurrection of the unjust)
    to #3 or #4 (Resurrection of the just) ]:

    Romans 10:9 (KJV1769 Edition): That if thou
    shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
    believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
    the dead, thou shalt be saved.



    1. Resurrection of Jesus
    WHO: Jesus
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
    resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
    are possible
    References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


    2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints

    WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
    those who believed in God's Messiah
    WHEN: 33AD
    WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

    3. Resurrection of the New Testament
    Saints (mostly Gentiles)


    WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
    of the Old Testament Saints
    WHEN: Some date after 6 Oct 2007;
    at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
    the Tribulation
    WHERE: Worldwide
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
    this resurrection is followed in but a
    moment by the translation of the living
    saints into a glorified heavenly body like
    that of Jesus
    References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

    4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints (mostly Israeli)

    WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
    who reject the Mark of the Beast
    WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
    beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
    HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
    WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
    References: Revelation 20:4-6,

    5. Resurrection of the non-Saints

    WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
    WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
    at the end of time
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: i don't know, God does
    HOW: i don't know, God does
    WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
    References: Revelation 20:12-15

    CAVEAT: The delineation of the five revealed
    resurrections above
    does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
    is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
    by his revelation to us or
    by our understanding of His revelation to us.
    For example: Two Witnesses shall
    be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

    There is a pastoral picture (From the Scripture.
    this is an example of how to let Scripture
    interpret scripture). Note that the order:
    First Fruits, Harvest, Gleanings, & Tares may
    not be strictly specified in the Bible, but that
    is how things are done in the real world.
    Here is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
    for which the 1. Resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
    (numbered here as above):

    2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

    3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

    4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

    5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

    Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
    of the just: The First Resurrection
    (because all the
    resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
    of the unjust /#5/ ).

    The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
    resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
    Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
    in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
    clearly notes that the just are raised one day
    (a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

    CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarly
    assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
    sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

    May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

    Note that resurrections #3 and #4 are accompanied
    by a rapture of living saints.

    --compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque
     
  13. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Ed EdwardsThe phrase 'FIRST RESURRECTION'
    in Revelation 20:5-6 does not preclude
    there from being more than one general
    resurreciton of the saints."

    GE
    Dear Ed, You gave us a lot of dictionaries stuff, but you said you read the Bible and you don't forget what you read likely. I understand you have not forgotten, because you could not have remembered seeing there is nowhere else in all of Scripture mention made of 'first resurrection' to remember! So that is two aspects of your argumentation down.

    Now what you have said, "The phrase 'FIRST RESURRECTION' in Revelation 20:5-6 does not preclude there from being more than one general resurrection of the saints." Does it pre-imply or in advance prove there are more than one 'general resurrection'? The two 'phrases' are separate ones - the one not even a phrae from the Bible, and of totally different nature. So 'general resurrection' cannot presuppose or imply or take for granted, "The First Resurrection". How then can "The First Resurrection" 'preclude the general resurrection, and then, not only the one 'general resurrection, but sommer two of them? To 'preclude' in this instance is as illegitimate as to take for granted.

    But while we are at it, let us hear the Word, what it, declares - not 'preclude' or 'presuppose' or 'take for granted - but what it says: "The rest of the dead lived not again until were finished: The Thousand Years This The First Resurrection: Blessed and holy: he that hath Part In The First Resurrection: on Such (as) the second death has no power-but-shall be priests of God and Christ and shall reign with Him Thousand Years." There is the definition of the Word of God of "The First Resurrection-Thousand Years"!

    Now you can multiply your 'Two resurrections' ad infinitum - they cannot imply "This The First Resurrection". Keep in mind too, that for each of your 'Resurrections', you oblige God to work yet another Coming of Christ, and yet another 'Hear (of) the Voice of the Son of Man', and at each resurrection, a second last and a third last and a fourth last and a fifth last Trump; and at each resurrection a second last and a third last and a fourth last and a fifth last Day of Christ's coming. It seems to me every time you read your whole Bible, you skip Rv20:5-6, and every time add another resurrection. FOR ONE REASON: to accommodate your time-setting! And time-setting hundreds of times has proven its genius', fools! Sequence-setting is time-setting; there's no difference.
     
    #53 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Oct 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2007
  14. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Ed Edwards
    "The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
    resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
    Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
    in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
    clearly notes that the just are raised one day
    (a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust."

    GE
    Unfortunately a miss is as good as a mile. Despite, here you have almost seen the light. It works out like this: The following Scriptures undoubtedly mention the simultaneous resurrection of all the just and all the wicked dead: all resurrected bodily and together in the same hour, "UNTO": either, "the resurrection OF LIFE"; or, "UNTO the resurrection OF damnation": John 5:28-29, Mt13, Mt25 Lk22 etc.

    1Thess4 deals with the righteous only but definitely does not, 'preclude' the resurrection of the wicked.

    Jn5:21-25 and Rv20:4-6 deal with The First Resurrection spiritually in the only era of Grace
     
  15. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Ed Edwards
    "CAVEAT: The delineation of the five revealed
    resurrections above
    does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
    is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
    by his revelation to us or
    by our understanding of His revelation to us.
    For example: Two Witnesses shall
    be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation."

    GE
    You have created a lot of trouble for yourself. Just accept the fact the same thing may be spoken of in the Bible many times and in many - even in as many - ways. Jesus used symbolism; John did; Paul did. More often than not. But it is the same thing, the only Coming Again of our Lord! Please come to rest; come to Jesus, He gives us rest. We may leave in His hands the future. Only thing He wanted us to know - for sure to know - is that He is coming again. One Day; one resurrection; One Lord; one power exercised / energised -- like when God first raised Christ from the dead. End of death; end of sin; end of dispensation; beginning of the New Earth and the New Heavens. I have today read Milton's Paradise Lost - not exactly everything I must say. But how beatiful! How austere. How strong in the faith. How inspiring. How reassuring. Read the oldies and discover your Bible as if the first time! Those saints were favourites of God if not inspired of God.
     
  16. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Gerhard Ebersoehn:
    //Now what you have said, "The phrase 'FIRST RESURRECTION'
    in Revelation 20:5-6 does not preclude there
    from being more than one general resurrection
    of the saints." Does it pre-imply or in advance
    proof there are more than one 'general resurrection'.//

    No, more than one general resurrection is NOT implied
    aby "Revelation 20:5-6 does not preclude there from being more than one general resurrection of the saints".

    However, note TWO groups of saved people in
    Revelation 20:4 which DOES imply more than
    one general resurrection.
    (if one choosed to select that 'and' in Rev 20:4
    implies two names for the same set of saints,
    then one will get different results).

    Gehard Ebersoehn:
    //FOR ONE REASON: to accommodate your
    time-setting! And time-setting hundreds of times
    has proven its geniusus fools!//

    Nope, I do NOT time set.
    However, the Bible does specify things that happen
    in two each 3½-year long halves of the 70Th
    week (7-years) of Daniel. So the Bible sets
    a time-line up from the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
    to the post-tribulation Coming of Jesus in Power and
    Glory. But I can't tell you the date of the pretribuation
    rapture/resurrect - the flawed time setting.
    The Bible is very clear on what happens the
    7 years after the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
    happens. That is in the Bible - and it isn't time setting.
    The pretribulation rapture/resurrection happens at
    a signless time and unknown time and comes
    AS a theif in the night (you don't know when it
    coming). The first part of 1 Thessalonians 5
    tells about the pretribulation rapture coming as
    a thief in the night - that is a literal similie figure
    of speach (the 'as' is the clue).

    BTW, I only followed where the Holy Spirit
    lead me in what the Bible says mostly
    (and some of what
    history says and what Science says, etc.)

    [spelling corrections - but not all]
     
    #56 Ed Edwards, Oct 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2007
  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Ed Edwards
    "References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8"

    GE
    I have read as you said. But I cannot find any "references" in these texts to Jesus resurrection? Am I wrong admitting I did find inferences, but not 'references' in the sense of mention of the event of Jesus' resurrection?
     
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Gerhard Ebersoehn:
    // ... that He is coming again. One Day; one resurrection; One Lord; one power exercised / energised -- like when God first raised Christ from the dead.//

    The scripture varies in oneness from what you say:

    Eph 4:4-6 (KJV1611 Edition):
    There is one body, and one spirit, euen
    as yee are called in one hope of your calling.
    5 One Lord, one Faith, one Baptisme,
    6 One God and Father of all, who is aboue all,
    & through all, & in you all.

    So "He is coming again" is correct.
    One Day - not verified by Ephesians 4:4-6
    (Though I agree - one day = one week = 7 years)
    one resurrection - not verified by Ephesians 4:4-6
    One Lord - verified by Ephesians 4:4-6
    one power exercised/energised -- ALL who
    follow Messiah Jesus receive His saving Power

    As I say, read all the Scripture -- it all fits
    together without contradiction.
     
  19. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Different terms are used for Different things.
    God being the author of the Bible uses the different
    terms for the most important things.

    For example our personal salvation has many terms:

    saved - exempt from the penalty of sin: death (the second death)
    redeemed - bought back by God
    adopted into the family of God
    born into the familyh of God
    become Join heirs with Christ
    called
    elected
    (that is off the top of my head).

    Mat 28:6 (KJV1611 Edition):
    He is not here: for he is risen,
    as hee said: Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

    This is a good definition of a resurrection:
    Jesus isn't in the tomb - he is RISEN.

    Mar 16:6 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And hee sayth vnto them, Be not affrighted;
    ye seeke Iesus of Nazareth, which was crucified:
    he is risen, hee is not here:
    behold the place where they laide him.

    The Resurrection of Jesus is what allows us to
    be resurrected. This is what resurrection is about:
    not in the grave - RISEN!

    Luk 24:6-8 (KJV1611 Edition):
    He is not heere, but is risen:
    Remember how he spake vnto you
    when he was yet in Galilee,
    7 Saying, The Sonne of man must be deliuered
    into the hands of sinfull men, and be crucified,
    and the third day rise againe.

    8 And they remembred his words,

    'rise again' = resurrected

    These verses are about the resurrection of Jesus.
     
  20. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    EE
    "(if one choosed to select that 'and' in Rev 20:4 implies two names for the same set of saints, then one will get different results)."

    GE
    Yes, if one chose. But who gave us permission to choose and make a difference between things which does not exist between them?
     
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