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#2 The Pre-Tribulation Rapture (PRT)

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Ed Edwards, Oct 16, 2007.

?
  1. pre-tribulation rapture ONLY

    33.3%
  2. pre-tribulation & post tribulation raptures

    9.1%
  3. post-tribulation only

    30.3%
  4. rapture is spiritual not physical

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. none of the above (partial-, mid-, pre-, etc)

    21.2%
  6. don't know OR other (specify)

    6.1%
  1. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Ed Edwards
    "You are getting your partial rapture2 confused with my
    Eschatology which is every saved person in the
    world (including all the Messanic Jews) will be
    raptured1 or resurrected1 in the rapture2.
    The two don't fit together."

    GE
    This is what I should say is meant by John's symbol of 'Babylon' -Confusion!
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1. I am really asking why you think that someone who accepts OSAS would not be post trib.

    2. "I think" that the non-OSAS post trib model is the best summary of the Bible teaching in both the Gospel and escatology giving hope to the saints in all ages rather than leaving those who went through great persecution in the past feeling like 2nd class citizens.

    But as we have discussed - what "I think" is not the point, right?

    Is it really petty to point out the inconvenient Bible facts that are a challenge for a given POV?

    Your response has you defending a presentation of the form "I think..I think...I think" and objecting to presentations of the form "The Bible says clearly... the Bible says clearly.. the Bible says Clearly... and then we guess on this part".

    I never said I do not want to know what you think -- I just said that we can do "I think x while you think y" all day long without getting anywhere.

    The question remains -- are you saying that no one who believes in OSAS will be post trib?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Dear Brother Ed,

    I don't want to hold you too long, but wish you have a nice trip there with the assistance of the Lord.
    What I can simply say is that we should be careful in saying " Stupid " if we follow the wisdom of the Holy Spirit. But don't bother with my comment.

    What I pointed out about Fornicators is this.
    I know you do not encourage or promote the fornication, but I just wanted to point out the contradictions and didn't jump up in the logic. Instead, I pointed out the end-result of such reasoning.

    Now if you can listen to me more, I can tell you this:

    1) Re 20:4-5 tells us only 3 groups of Believers will be resurrected ( or participants in New Millennium), and they are A) Judges, B) Martyrs, C) Anti-Beast Believers during the Tribulation.

    2) Rest of them will not be resurrected until 1000 years ( Re 20:5)

    3) Problem is that there are millions, millions of Believers who belong to neither Judges, nor Martyrs, nor Anti-Beast Believers. One may try to escape to the category of Judges, because the Robber at the Cross and Fornicator in 1 Cor 5:5 were neither Martyrs nor the Anti-Beast Believers. They are the Barely Saved Believers. The Barely Saved will surely go to the Heaven.
    However, the Judges are not such group of believers where the plain believers are belonging to. The Judges may be the Special Believers like Apostle Paul, Disciples, OT prophets, Great Believers after the Apostles, many forerunners even after the Reformation, and they might be 144,000.

    Then it will cause us to question about the " D" group which may cover the rest of the Believers. This is what I wanted you to think about, and I just pointed out the contradiction and the dilemma of the popular Escahtology with PTR.

    Anyway, have a nice trip in the Lord Jesus.
     
    #103 Eliyahu, Oct 21, 2007
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2007
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In 1Thess 4 "the Dead in Christ rise first" -- that is the dead saints of all ages in all of time -- rising in the ONE resurrection promised "IF I go to prepare a place for you... I will come again and RECEIVE you to myself" John 14.

    In all cases John 14 solves the issue with John's chapter in Rev 20:4-5. This is why 1Peter 1:13 tells us to focus completely on that one single event.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Dear brother Bob Ryan,
    The truth is not the truth if not all the truth and nothing but the truth.
    Honey around the mouth doesn't help swallow the sting.
     
  6. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    It means, at best, you have actually said nothing, or at face value, bluff or try to bluff
     
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    //My point is that simply "listing preferences" and nothing more
    (such as saying that you prefer to insert Romans 11
    information into Dan 9's 490 prophecy about the Messiah)
    melts down to a "I prefer x and you prefer Y" discussion very quickly.//

    I described this two different ways and both of them were
    jumped on by different people.

    I think you both misunderstood what I was talking
    about. I notice neither of you jumped on to my
    third description of what happend to me over the 55
    years I've been a Christian (one of whom is even
    older than you and I - age 66).
    That third description is from the Mathematics
    Branch called 'Logic' and sometimes 'Symbolic Logic'.
    For if you couch your logic correctly in that branch
    and do the logic correct, you can discover new facts
    and truths. Others who know logic can also see
    that what you are doing is good or bad. But that
    presuposes that the partners in the conversation are
    conversant with that branch of Mathematics called
    'Symbloic Logic'.

    If we start out talking about points, lines,
    and planes -- then we end up with a gemoetry.
    If we start out talking about the State (governmental body),
    people, and duties -- then we end up with a politics
    "we hold these truths to be self evident /aka: axiomatic/
    ... " from the US Declaration of Independence.
    If we start out talking about God, people, and salvation
    -- then we end up with a religion.

    Obvously in this Baptist type of Christianity it is well
    to start out with Biblical truths for the beginning level
    of undefined terms and basic Axioms (old name, new
    name is assumptions - but it is the Mathematics Logic
    type 'assumption'

    So "listing preferences" is way off from what I'm trying
    to communicate.

    Side note to those who gave up long time ago trying to
    read thru all my stuff -- these people don't actually
    misunderstand me -- it is a poor debating technique
    which some like to employ.

    I'll just keep on chuggin' along as I have time to so do.

    //The question is how much actual Bible fact can we uncover bedhind each doctrinal POV or are some of the points of view nothing more than a long string of preferences and inserts?//

    More than you like.
    I'm doing exactly what Uriah Smith did in his SDA book:
    DANIEL AND THE REVELATION (Southern Publishing
    Association, Nashville, Tnn, 1897).

    Of course in 1897 he drew a line north of Yerusalem and found
    the Ottoman Empire - the King of the North. In 2007 I draw
    a line due north of Yerusalem and see it runs right through
    Russia - the King of the North.

    In 1897 he said that God whipping on the eveil guys was
    so God could display His Power and Might to the good
    guys. About 1964 (I didn't know it until a few years later)
    was the first time that mankind had the capability of
    destroying all mankind (some people say all life period).
    So now it is easy to see that the Tribulation Period God brings
    is about saving mankind from self destruction.
    So I have inside that Bro. Uriah Smith didn't have in 1897
    cause I'm closer to the Trimphial return of Jesus to:

    1. come get me and the other saints
    2. whip up on the anticrist and all those bad guys.

    By the Eschatology God gave me from the Bible and
    looking around today - I have developed my own system
    of Eschatology NOT some think somebody else figured out.
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Ed -

    Regardless of where you get it or where I get an idea -- there are some points that clearly remain.

    1. We agree on somethings and differ on others.
    2. That does not stop us from being Christian
    3. We benefit to the degree that we find actual solid Bible support either in what the other person is saying or in what we are saying to the degree that it survives careful scrutiny from one who does not already start out believing it in our exchange of posts.


    Having said that - I also benefit from the fact that you are willing to talk about your views in places where the Bible appears to oppose the details of what you believe. It is hepful to me that you will speak to those points because as it turns out -- there are a lot of PTR guys out there and I think they are confronted with the problems you are trying to solve - so your solutions are helpful in understanding the other side of the fence and what people are likely to choose as a solution.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    //The question remains -- are you saying that no
    one who believes in OSAS will be post trib?//

    If I knew the answer, I wouldn't need to
    take a poll ...
     
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    read #108 up two.

    What BobRyan said.

    And thank you BobRyan for helping me get my
    thoughts together.

    Now if only I could get my thoughts spelleyed rite :godisgood:
     
  11. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    GE
    You are 'post-trib', I cannot fathom what Ed Edwards is, perhaps something like 5xpre-1kY. Just like you - post trib or pre trib it's all pre-1kY. It's all Jesus comes '+.1+x.' where x=0. In maths that would be 0, or something as good or worth. That is for your paper now!

    The Gospel is Jesus comes again and never again. Either carry on making a joke of God's Truth and Science, or repent!
     
  12. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Amen, Brother BobRyan -- Preach it!
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Ed - although I give you a hard time in areas where I think your POV is challenged by the text - I am not saying that you are not a Christian and a well respected student of scripture.

    I just happen to differ with you on some particular view of scripture. I appreciate the fact that I have the opportunity to ask you questions and to have you give what is very probably the best answer there is for that question from within the PTR camp.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Thank you Brother BobRyan.

    I did Dental this morning - got my bottom back
    left molar RE-crowned. He had to re-crown twice
    cause the first one was put on crooked - sigh!

    Late in the afternoon I took my Grandaughter
    to horse 'camp'; picked her up a couple
    hours later. In-between i picked up my loaner
    4th car from my Son (he works/attends college
    all day on Monday).

    The highpoint of my day was a 1-hour nap.

    Ah the joys of being retired and not having nothing
    to do ;)
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I should be so lucky someday - :praying:

    Maybe in ten or 15 years if I am a good boy.
     
    #115 BobRyan, Oct 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 23, 2007
  16. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Why?

    Why does God have about things that are going on
    the the future sometime?

    I repost the following because of the passage from
    1 Thess-4&5. I underline & enlarge
    the two parts I think that
    answer my Why Eschatology? question.

    ---------------------------------


    The Thessalonians were familiar with
    this saying of Jesus which we now find
    recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

    But he that shall endure unto
    the end, the same shall be saved.


    But some said of their friend "He got
    sick and died before Jesus came to
    get him, poor soul -- he didn't endure
    to the end."

    Paul addresses this problem in
    a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
    one of the most comforting passages in the
    Bible.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

    13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
    brethren, concerning those who have fallen
    asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
    have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
    rose again, even so God will bring with Him
    those who sleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
    that we who are alive and remain until
    the coming of the Lord will by no means
    precede those who are asleep.
    16 For the Lord Himself will descend
    from heaven with a shout, with the voice
    of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
    And the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain
    shall be caught up (LATIN: raptured)
    together with them in the clouds to meet
    the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
    always be with the Lord
    .
    18 Therefore comfort one another with these words[/u.
    5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
    brethren, you have no need that I should
    write to you.
    2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
    the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
    in the night.
    3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
    then sudden destruction comes upon them,
    as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
    And they shall not escape.
    4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
    so that this Day should overtake
    you as a thief.
    5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
    We are not of the night nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
    but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
    and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
    8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
    putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
    and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
    9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation through our
    Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
    we should live together with Him
    .
    11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
    one another
    ,
    just as you also are doing.

    I've underlined a command to comfort each
    other with these things. I personally don't see how
    we can comfort each other with 'Jesus is going to
    come get us at the end of the Tribulation period'.
    So I use 'Jesus is going to come get us at the end of
    the age which is before the Tribulation Period starts.

    Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
    had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
    in a second letter:

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

    1 Now, brethren, concerning
    the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    and our gathering together to Him,
    we ask you
    ,
    2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
    either by spirit or by word or by letter,
    as if from us, as though the day of Christ
    had come
    .
    3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
    for that Day will not come unless
    the falling away comes first,
    and the man of sin
    is revealed, the son of perdition,

    I underlined "our gathering together to Him,
    we ask you
    " in verse 1 and
    the falling away comes first.
    The second is the only mention of the first
    in the rest of the chapter.

    The falling away that comes first
    is the Rapture!
    Then the man of sin is revealed, the
    antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
    begins.

    While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
    English versions before the KJV used a
    form of "departure" - again, the idea of
    someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation
    rapture/resurrection

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible):
    Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
    not come, except there come a departing first, and that
    that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

    There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
    the rapture.
    Here are some things that could happen
    before the rapture but they do NOT
    have to happen.

    1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
    2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
    (the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
    Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
    Millinnial Kingdom period)
    3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
    on Mount Moriah north of and alongside
    the Dome of the Rock.

    But again, these things do not HAVE
    TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
    happen after the rapture; they could happen
    before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
    HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
    rapture.

    ----------------------------------------

    How is Ezekiel 39 to be fullfilled if it
    doesn't happen in the Church AGe or
    in the Tribulation Period -- it is going to
    happen? YES it will happen but
    can't in a post-tribulation rapture only
    scenario where the world comes to an End
    as soon as Jesus steps on the earth and
    tosses Satan & the Anti-christ into hell.
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Matt 24 God reminds us of the use case of His warning sinful pre-flood man about the end of the world.

    While good men may have differred on the subject of "rain" in the pre-flood church disputes -- it "mattered" which side of that debate you were on - once the ark was finished and the animals were going in --

    Until that point a lot of good natured "disputing" coulda been going on without loss of life.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    While this (note on another venue)
    notes that 42 months of 30 days are
    1260 days and they both are 3½ years of 360 days each;
    there is another related prophetic time:
    "time, and times, and half (a time)" or
    'time, times, and a dividing of time'.
    References: (Revelation 12:14, Daniel 12:7, Daniel 7:25).
    Ah, these are mentioned, just no mention that
    'time, times, and half a time' = 1+2+½ = 3½-years.

    Dan 9:27 [reference #2 from JKV1611 Edition]:
    And hee shall confirme the couenant with many for one weeke:
    and in the midst of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice
    and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of abominations
    hee shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation,
    & that determined, shalbe powred vpon the desolate.


    Dan 9:27 implies that there are two halves of Daniel's 70th week.
    I believe the AOD (abomination of Desolation) happens
    in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel.

    Let us look at the 42 months, 3½-year, 1260days,
    time-times-and-half-a-time passages & half weeks:

    All selections are from the KJV1611 Edition:

    Dan 7:25 [reference #1 from JKV1611 Edition]:
    And he shall speake great words against
    the most high, and shall weare
    out the Saints of the most high, and thinke
    to change times, and lawes: and they
    shall be giuen into his hand,
    vntill a time and times, & the diuiding of time.


    The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.

    Dan 12:7 [reference #3 from JKV1611 Edition]:
    And I heard the man clothed in linnen,
    which was vpon the waters of
    the riuer, when he held vp his right hand,
    and his left hand vnto heauen, and
    sware by him that liueth for euer, that it shalbe
    for a time, times, and an halfe:
    and when hee shall haue accomplished
    to scatter the power of the holy people,
    all these things shall bee finished.


    The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist.

    Rev 11:1-3 [references #4 and #5 from JKV1611 Edition]:
    And there was giuen me a reede like
    vnto a rod, and the Angel stood,
    saying, Rise, and measure the Temple
    of God, and the Altar, and them that
    worship therein.
    2 But the Court which is without the
    Temple leaue out, and measure it not:
    for it
    is giuen vnto the Gentiles, and the holy citie
    shall they tread vnder foote fourty
    and two moneths
    .
    3 And I will giue power vnto my two witnesses,
    and they shall prophesie a
    thousand two hundred and threescore dayes
    clothed in sackcloth.


    The measuring devise signifies that the temple mount is to be
    measured for the rebuilding of the temple. I believe this
    Temple will be rebuilt in 3½-years.
    The two witness will have POWER and will prophesie 1260 days

    Sorry folks but if Antichrist scatters the power of the people
    for 3½-years and the two witnesses have power 3½-years -- how can
    this be at the same time? Two different periods of 3½-years are suggested

    Rev 11:2 [reference #3 from JKV1611 Edition]:
    But the Court which is without the Temple leaue out,
    and measure it not: for it is giuen vnto the Gentiles,
    and the holy citie shall they tread vnder foote
    fourty and two moneths.


    The reason not to measure, is because nothing will be built
    where the 'Court which is without the Temple' AKA: Court
    of the Nations or Court of the Gentiles.
    The Temple consists of the Holy of Holies & in the Holy Place
    in a tall building (taller than it is wide).
    Around that is the court where sacrifices are made.
    Sacrifices can be made while the Holy of Holies & Holy Place
    building is being built.
    Outside the court of the men is the court of the nations.
    This part of the temple complex: court of the nations,
    is where the 3ed most holy shrine of the Muslim world stands
    today: the Dome of the Rock. Interesting prophecy, eh ? written
    in about 96AD about a situation which didn't exist until
    about 686AD.

    Rev 12:6 [reference #6 from JKV1611 Edition]:
    And the woman fled into the wildernesse, where shee hath a place
    prepared of God, that they should feed
    her there a thousand, two hundred, and
    threescore dayes.


    The woman (Jewish/Israeli) flees into the wilderness 3½-years.

    Rev 12:14 [reference #7 from JKV1611 Edition]:
    And to the woman were giuen two wings
    of a great Eagle, that shee
    might flee into the wildernesse into her place,
    where she is nourished for a time,
    and times, and halfe a time
    , from the face of the serpent.


    God protects the woman in the wilderness 3½-years.
    This is OBVIOUSLY the same period as in Rev 12:6.

    Rev 13:5 [reference #7 from JKV1611 Edition]:
    And there was giuen vnto him a mouth, speaking great things, and
    blasphemies, and power was giuen
    vnto him to continue fortie and two moneths.


    This is generally considered the rule of the Antichrist for
    3½-years. But note the word 'continue' - Antichrist is already
    ruling something and continues his rule for 3½-years more.
    This also indicates two periods, both of which could be 3½-years
    in length.

    So here is what I end up with for the two suggested each 3½-year-periods
    In Daniel 9:27.

    1. - the 3½-years in which the antichrist rises to power
    - the two witness will have POWER and will prophesy 3½-years
    - the holy city (Jerusalem) is tread underfoot 3½-years
    - temple /in Jerusalem/ is built for 3½-years

    2. - The people of God will be 'given into his hand's, the Antichrist for 3½-years
    - the 3½-years in which the antichrist rules in power
    - The woman flees into the wilderness 3½-years
    - God protects the woman in the wilderness 3½-years.
     
  19. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    I note there is 7 years before the post-tribulation only coming
    of the Lord happens (*with it's resurrection2 - "as a thief
    in the night" - but it doesn't happen for 7 years yet?

    The pre-tribulation rapture2 can happen any time.

    Anyway, none of us know when we shall die.
    So Jesus may come and get you personally when you
    die, eh?
     
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    from this page:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=42747&page=35

    [quote =Post #2 in #1 PTR]
    Thirdly,

    You saying of 2 Thess. 2:1 into two different comings,
    because of word, 'and'. But, you actual twist
    God's Word, what Paul wrotes.

    We must understand what the grammar or sentence actual saying.

    2 Thess. 2:1 doesn't give us a hint that, there is two separate comings.
    [/quote]


    Reminds me of another scripture:
    1 Corinthians 9:26 (KJV1611 Edition):
    I therefore so runne, not as vncertainely:
    so fight I, not as one that beateth the ayre:


    Take care lest thou beateth the air in vain.

    2 Th 2:1 (KJV1611 Edition):
    Now wee beseech you, brethren,
    by the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ, (ONE)
    and <-- HINT HINT! --
    by our gathering together vnto him, (TWO)

    -and- connects two seperate, distinct sets of events
     
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