2 Thess 2

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by jim1203, Mar 4, 2007.

  1. jim1203

    jim1203
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    I don't write much on this board but read alot but I need help with this. I like Bible verses to back up your beliefs, so in our Bible study on Sun nights alot of times its me standing alone. Heres what was discussed tonight.We're talking about pre-trib.

    1. At the rapture the Holy Spirit will be removed from earth

    2. Anyone that has heard the Gospel before Rapture cannot be saved.

    3. Since the Holy Spirit is removed at the rapture we go back to the old testament and the only way to be saved is to become a Jew.

    To let you know I disagree with all these statements.In 2 Thess 2:7 my Bible says" taken out of the way". not taken away
     
  2. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
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    First, it would help to find a scripture passage that says that the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit. I haven't found one yet.

    It would also be helpful to explain why the martyrs in Rev. 7 are described as believers killed during the tribulation. This passage suggests that believers went through the tribulation. It also suggests that the Holy Spirit was also present.

    It would also be helpful if dispys would agree among themselves. One group says no Gentiles will be saved during the tribulation. Another says only Gentiles who have never heard the gospel can be saved during the tribulation. Still others say that the gospel preached before the rapture is not the same gospel preached during the tribulation. And still others hold that only Jews will be saved during the tribulation.

    I have no expertise in this area, only questions.
     
  3. GordonSlocum

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    It is true that those questions are there and those views are there, but those views compared to the alternative seem better than no view at all. The A-Millennial view simply ignores and spiritualizes it. Dispensationalist with its different twist is far better than cutting out 1/3 the Bible. A-Millennial theology permits a literal first coming and a none literal second coming when it come to understanding the rest of the Bible with respect to the second coming passages.
     
  4. skypair

    skypair
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    Jim,

    Bless your heart! It is a muddle to understand, isn't it? Let me preface my answers with this -- I believe that 2Thes 2 is "Paul's Olivett Discourse" to the church (like unto Jesus's in Mt 24)

    2:6-7 is really what they are talking about. There we see 2 things "removed" -- 1) "what that withholdeth" (the true church) and 2) "he that restraineth" the Holy Spirit IN the church. Remember that the Comforter came to the church, John 14:16? Well, when the church goes, He goes. But only His presence in the church. The Spirit is still present in the Word of God, jim. He is still "with" them -- just not "in" them, John 14:17 last few words)

    My late pastor, Dr. Rogers, taught this but I respectfully disagree. If you read on in 2Thes 2 in particular, you see 3 groups in 2:10-14: 1) those who did not believe prerapture (2:10), 2) those who did not believe AND had pleasure in unrighteousness (2:11) and 3) those who believe and obtain glory pretrib. Do you see those. I believe some of group (1) will be saved. Rev 2-3 backs me up showing some left behind in 5 of the churches who will have an "Israel-like" destiny. Also backing my notion is that the 5 foolish virgins seem to have gone and bought (per Rev 3:18) and appear at the wedding door in heaven (Mt 25:1-13). Also, I see the 5th seal martyrs in Rev 6:9-11 as MOSTLY church.

    Yes, OT-style salvation. But no, we won't need to become Jews - not till the MK. It's just that that salvation is only unto "justification" whereas when we are saved today, we are justified (given the righteousness of God in our soul) AND SANCTIFIED (by the indwelling Spirit in our spirit).

    Which is the real reason for the post, right? Does it now appear to you that you didn't have enough information and the questions were constructed such that you couldn't really make an informed decision?

    skypair
     
  5. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Hello jim.

    There is to be one resurrection on the return of Jesus.

    MT 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

    2TH 2:5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

    This is in reference to the anti-christ. The spirit world's influence in the world is restrained but the day will come when they are let of the chains. The Holy Spirit will not be leaving but He will move aside. When this happens the end is very close.

    Any help?

    john.
     
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Dear Jim,
    You appear to have a problem with understanding logic
    and lack of information about how doctrines are developed.

    When you don't know if a particular doctrine is true, you
    assume it is true and see if it conflicts with other doctrines.
    There are lots of denominations because (one thing only that
    probably caused only about 20% of the denominatiol splits,
    the big denominations splitter is geography) of variant
    doctrines. So to work doctrines in the eschatological area
    you have to know what your doctrines are in the other areas.

    All three of these statements I've individually assumed to
    be true and they do NOT cause contradictions with the Bible
    on other doctrines.

    Logically you can prove a proposition false if you
    assume it to be true and can show it conflicts with other
    true assumptions or propositions.

    However, logically you cannot prove a proposition true
    if you assume it to be true and show it does NOT conflit
    with other true assumptions, propositions, or doctrines.

    I will be glad to defend all the three propositions you posit.
    Actually there are only two propositions to defend,
    #3 is a combo of #1 and #2.

    (I sometimes wonder about #2, it is a quality of God that
    He gives some second, third, 4th, 5th, even 6th chances.
    He might just give some who heard about Jesus before
    the pretribulation rapture/resurrection but didn't accept it
    then. But I sure wouldn't BET my eternal soul's final
    results on 'He might just give'. Now is the appointed time
    for salvation.
     
  7. webdog

    webdog
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    Skypair gave a good reply to this. I would also add that power is on the side of the believer currently. An antichrist would have no power over today's Christian. Plenty of NT Scripture dealing with ressisting the devil, the gates of hell will never overcome the church, etc.
    Pure assumption. Based on 2 Peter 3:9, we know God to be patient. I also do not see where the angel proclaiming the Gospel in Rev. 14:6 is only proclaiming it to those who never heard the Gospel. It says "those who dwell on earth". That would seem to include everyone...
    Rev 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people.

    I don't recall reading where only Jews were saved in the OT. I just got done reading about Rahab the prostitute. She wasn't jewish. Salvation has always been by grace through faith whether OT or NT. NT believers have the added bonus of the "Comforter" which indwells.
    What do you think "taken out of the way" means? Does it mean the Holy Spirit is pulled to the sidelines during the tribulation? Even if the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way, since He indwells me, and promised to never leave me, where will I be taken?
     
  8. npetreley

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    Me neither. The best argument I've seen is that the restrainer is Michael, the archangel.

    The portion in bold describes the great tribulation, which occurs immediately after Michael "arises".

    There are two problems with this translation, however. First, there is a logical problem with what is implied by "arise". If the great tribulation occurs after Michael arises [arises to what? to fight?], then Michael is a pretty poor archangel, isn't he? Here he has been protecting his people all this time, but when he arises, everything goes bad? Huh?

    But the Hebrew can also be translated as "stand up" or "stand still". The latter is the equivalent of "standing down". In other words, when Michael stands down, then all heck breaks loose (the great tribulation).

    This makes even more sense when you realize the great tribulation is something that is focused primarily on Israel, not the whole world. Note what Jesus says:

    Rather, note what Jesus does NOT say. He does NOT say, "Let those in Rome flee to the seas" or "Let those in New York City run to the Poconos". In fact, the people of Judea don't even have to flee to Greece. All they have to do is flee to the mountains. Why? Because this is (at least mostly) a local event.
     
  9. johnp.

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    2TH 2:5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.

    Is that what is holding him back npetreley, it is not time yet? When that time comes Michael, the great prince who protects our people, will arise?

    We must be able to work it out because Paul says 'And now you know'.

    john.
     
  10. webdog

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    Michael has no power over satan. If he did, he would not have said "the Lord rebuke you".
     
  11. npetreley

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    Yes, that's what I'm suggesting is the strongest argument (in my opinion, anyway) - that Michael is holding back the possibility of the man of sin to appear, so that he may be revealed at the proper time (when Michael stands down). I suspect Paul just came right out and told the Thessalonians, but we aren't privy to what Paul told them. But I think the parallel passage in Daniel is enough to make the case. It's enough for me, anyway. And it's not so important to me that it matters whether I'm right or wrong - the more important issue is that the text does NOT suggest that God removes His Holy Spirit from the earth, which is one of the pre-tribber arguments (the argument goes: no Holy Spirit, no Christians, therefore the rapture must occur then).

    As for Michael restraining satan, that's a non-issue. The man of sin may eventually be empowered by satan (hard to say), but he isn't satan, himself.
     
  12. johnp.

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    No npetreley, what I mean is that time is holding him back, that it was not the proper time. When Paul wrote this the man of peace still had at least 2,000 years to go before he is born.

    Now Michael rises to our aid when he arrives. He doesn't cause it. :) Anyway, I see no problem with Michael fighting Satan.

    I think the man will be possessed by Satan.

    john.
     
  13. npetreley

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    I think both are true. He can't appear until the time that God has appointed, no matter who/what is holding him back.
     
  14. EdSutton

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    Eh-HIC!

    HIC!

    Ed
     
    #14 EdSutton, Mar 5, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 5, 2007
  15. EdSutton

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    I think skypair has it basically right, here. I further think verse three where "falling away" is rendered in the KJV, from the word 'apostasia" simply means departure, and does not refer to "apostasy' as is often taught. I think this refers to the departure, the 'catching away' of the church, at the 'rapture'.

    Ed
     
  16. webdog

    webdog
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    Apostosia means in simple terms "removal of Chrsitianity". Sure sounds like a rapture to me.
     
  17. Ed Edwards

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    2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible of 1587):
    Let no man deceiue you by any meanes:
    for that day shall not come,
    except there come a departing first,
    and that that man of sinne be disclosed,
    euen the sonne of perdition,


     
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    The Thessalonians were familiar with
    this saying of Jesus which we now find
    recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

    But he that shall endure unto
    the end, the same shall be saved.


    But some said of their friend "He got
    sick and died before Jesus came to
    get him, poor soul -- he didn't endure
    to the end."

    Paul addresses this problem in
    a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
    one of the most comforting passages in the
    Bible.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

    13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
    brethren, concerning those who have fallen
    asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
    have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
    rose again, even so God will bring with Him
    those who sleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
    that we who are alive and remain until
    the coming of the Lord will by no means
    precede those who are asleep.
    16 For the Lord Himself will descend
    from heaven with a shout, with the voice
    of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
    And the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain
    shall be caught up (LATIN: raptured)
    together with them in the clouds to meet
    the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
    always be with the Lord
    .
    18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
    5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
    brethren, you have no need that I should
    write to you.
    2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
    the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
    in the night.
    3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
    then sudden destruction comes upon them,
    as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
    And they shall not escape.
    4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
    so that this Day should overtake
    you as a thief.
    5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
    We are not of the night nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
    but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
    and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
    8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
    putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
    and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
    9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation through our
    Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
    we should live together with Him
    .
    11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
    one another
    , just as you also are doing.

    Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
    had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
    in a second letter:

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

    1 Now, brethren, concerning
    the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    and our gathering together to Him,
    we ask you
    ,
    2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
    either by spirit or by word or by letter,
    as if from us, as though the day of Christ
    had come
    .
    3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
    for that Day will not come unless
    the falling away comes first,
    and the man of sin
    is revealed, the son of perdition,

    The falling away that comes first
    is the Rapture!
    Then the man of sin is revealed, the
    antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
    begins.

    While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
    English versions before the KJV used a
    form of "departure" - again, the idea of
    someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation
    rapture/resurrection

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible):
    Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
    not come, except there come a departing first, and that
    that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

    There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
    the rapture.
    Here are some things that could happen
    before the rapture but they do NOT
    have to happen.

    1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
    2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
    (the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
    Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
    Tribulation period)
    3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
    on Mount Moriah north of and alongside
    the Dome of the Rock.

    But again, these things do not HAVE
    TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
    happen after the rapture; they could happen
    before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
    HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
    rapture.
     
  19. EdSutton

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    I agree, EdEd Sr. Sir.

    Ed
     
  20. Grasshopper

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    This is one of the most disturbing "flavor of the month" teachings of Thomas Ice and modern dispies. They can't find a rapture in the text so one is made up.


    Strongs
    G646
    ἀποστασία
    apostasia
    ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
    Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.


    G646
    ἀποστασία
    apostasia
    Thayer Definition:
    1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

    I would like to see from scripture how this really means "departure" or "catching away" or "removal of Christianity". Bizarre to say the least. I guess the term "apostate Church" is a good thing in dispie circles.

    I also must assume that the Thessalonians never recieved their relief from tribulation and persecution as Paul had promised them.

    2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
    2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

     

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