This verse was used in another thread by Pastor Larry to defend the concept that the elect are chosen in eternity past for salvation. But that is not what this verse is saying at all! KJV: Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. NIV: Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. Now, whoever the elect are, Paul is working that they ALSO, or TOO, may obtain salvation through Christ. What does that 'also' mean? There are two possibilities: 1. If the elect are those, as Calvinism teaches, who are chosen for salvation from eternity past, then they will not all obtain that salvation. or 2. The elect are not elected unto salvation but 'the elect' refers to something else, or someone else. And Paul is praying and working that they, too, may obtain salvation through Christ. The first option is clearly nonsense where Calvinism is concerned and must be discarded. The second causes Calvinism itself to be discarded because the elect are, in this option, clearly not elected unto salvation itself. Folks, the elect are the Jewish people. Formed and elected by God to show Himself both spiritually and then, through the Incarnation, physically, to the world. They are the people who were called out physically as Christians are called out spiritually. And Paul is praying and working that they may be saved through Christ as well as the Gentiles he is an Apostle to. Read Paul's anguish for his own people in Romans 9:2-5 -- I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. Paul confirms this concept of his people being the elect a number of places, and very strongly in Romans 11. verses 28-29: As far as the gospel is concerned, they [the Jewish people] are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. The same word which translated into 'elect' or 'elected' also translates into 'choose' or 'chosen.' In Romans 11:4-5 Paul is in the middle of an explanation about the Jewish people at the time of Elijah, and we find the following: And what was God's answer to him? 'I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.' So, too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. This is clearly and specifically talking about the Jewish people. I did a partial study on this for Baptist Board some time ago and it is up on our website here: http://www.setterfield.org/elect.htm There are many, many other passages referring to the Jewish people as the elect, and not generally as those who are saved. Pastor Larry's use of the 2 Timothy passage is therefore not only erroneous as applying to Calvinism, but actually refutes it.