#2 Two Salvations? #3 Kingdom Exclusion

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Ed Edwards, Sep 27, 2006.

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  1. Ed Edwards

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    From #1 Two Salvations

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=33712

    Lacy Evans: //Tiny Tim posted this very good list of questions
    regarding the teaching of Millennial Exclusion. I though
    it might warrant a new thread since that one is already
    over the page # limit. I will show his post and we
    can talk about it if you wan.//

    Quote:
    I figure this thread will be closed soon since it is over 30 pages, but before It gets closed, I want to ask a question...

    In the doctrine of Kingdom exclusion... is it teaching that there are 2 salvations.... one, eternal salvation, and two, kingdom salvation.

    One is conditional on what Christ did
    two is conditional on what we do?

    Is that the correct way to look at it?

    If so, then a person can be saved for eternity, but for a 1000 yrs be cut off from Christ?

    It would seem that a person would have to believe in a literal 1000 yr reign also....

    And is the kingdom of Heaven, kingdom of Heavens, and kingdom of God, kingdom of Christ all the same, or are there differences?

    From #1 Kingdom Exclusion:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=33303

     
    #1 Ed Edwards, Sep 27, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2006
  2. webdog

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    Ed, I would be interested in hearing your take on this subject, as we agree pretty much on eschatology.
     
  3. Ed Edwards

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    Sure, Brother Webdog.

    Somewhere it seems like I remember that the largely Gentile
    Church members blessed with Millinnial Kingdom Service will
    rule over Jews. There are, IMHO, 2 Billion Church Age saints
    living or dead. There are some 18 Million Jews alive on the
    earth today. If Premillinnial Rapture/resurrection/Body-overhaul
    for the the church age saints were today and the
    Second Coming (setting up the Physcial MIllinnial Messanic
    Kingdom) that would mean 2000/18 = 111 rulers for each
    Jew. I can't see that happening - it is nonsense. Something in
    the computation is in error.

    I believe that only a limited number of Church Age saints
    will be rewarded with service in the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom.
    I do not belive in pergutory nor that those chosen NOT to
    serve Christ in the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom will be punished.
    Only rewards will be given out (some do-little saints like Ed
    will not get very many rewards) at the Bema Seat of Christ
    which meeting takes place in heaven during the Tribulation
    Period on earth 'pre-tribulation Rapture/Resurrection/New-Body'-wise
     
    #3 Ed Edwards, Sep 27, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2006
  4. James_Newman

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    Now webdog, since you admit that a believer can be carnal and still be saved, what would you make of verses that explicitly state that certain sins will keep people from inheritting the kingdom?

    Galatians 5:19-21
    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
     
  5. webdog

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    The key is "works of the flesh". What is not stated is whether someone is a believer, how many "works of the flesh" one must commit, and how long? Can you tell me?

    If I have an affair...am I disqualified? If I spend more time on the computer than with the Lord...am I disqualified? If I drink too much once...am I disqualified? And what is "such like"?
     
  6. Benjamin

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    (Gal 5:4) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

    (Gal 5:5) For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

    (Gal 5:6) For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

    (Gal 5:7) Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

    (Gal 5:8) This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.

    (Gal 5:9) A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

    (Gal 5:10) I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

    (Gal 5:11) And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offense of the cross ceased.

    (Gal 5:12) I would they were even cut off which trouble you. :eek:
     
  7. J. Jump

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    Tim basically asked the same question and it is a good question that has been answered, but I will answer it again as it is always good to bring these things into rememberance.

    There is not a set number of sins that disqalify one from entrance. It is a matter of continuing to grow in grace and in faith or not doing those things and living a life for self.

    If a person's only sin is adultery, just as an example. Then if one commits adultery and repents upon conviction then one is okay based upon I John 1:9. Now if said person commits adultery and continues to live in that sin and is unrepentant then they will not inherit the kingdom of God according to I Corinthians.

    It's not about a number, but about the heart. If you will save your life (soul) now (meaning live for self) then you are going to lose your life (soul) in the age to come. But if you lose your life (soul) now (meaning die to self. Die to your agenda, your wants, your desires, denying the flesh, walking in the Spirit) then you are going to find your life (soul) in the age to come.

    We are not given a clear cut line that we can step up to, but not cross, because we are to focus our eyes on Jesus, not on the line. If we are continually focused on Christ then we won't be anywhere near the line to cross it.

    Hope that helps.
     
  8. James_Newman

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    Well obviously an unbeliever that does these things is not going to inherit the kingdom. But what you must ask yourself is, if I commit adultery, am I one of 'they' that commit such things? The answer would have to be yes. We can be forgiven of such sins if we confess and forsake them, but if we have these sins in our lives, we are they.
     
  9. Hope of Glory

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    I would also like to copy and paste some quotes from StraightandNarrow for this debate. He (and DPT) have posted many Scriptures that seem to require works to be saved. If you don't have to work to be saved, how do you answer him? Remember, he's quoting from the same rule book. [Highlights are mine, not his.]

    [Personal note: I think he's saying that you must produce fruit to be saved.]

    Now, while I disagree with his conclusion that your salvation is works based, so it can be lost, how do you refute his arguments? He shows works and how they seem to apply to salvation? Do you believe in Lordship salvation?
     
  10. Diggin in da Word

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    Paul addressed those in the Church at Corinth as Saints, yet later on in the same letter, he called them carnal.

    Paul himself stated that there are carnal Christians.
     
    #10 Diggin in da Word, Sep 27, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2006
  11. Linda64

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    The above quotes are from the other thread (Two Salvations) which has been closed. It puzzles me why someone who names the Name of Christ would say something like what J. Jump said. If indeed you believe that there is a possiblilty that you would hear the words "I never knew you" from the Lord, you will be facing the Lord Jesus at the Great White Throne Judgment--for the unsaved.

    All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37)

    Kingdom Exclusion has believers "cast out into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 8:12)

    Our assurance is in Christ alone--His shed blood cleanses us from all sin. I have the assurance of my salvation and my translation into the "kingdom of His dear Son" (Col. 1:12-13; 1 John 5:11-13) right now.
     
  12. J. Jump

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    So says Linda, but I'll take Scripture of so says Linda any day no offense.



    I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but let's say it again because I guess it needs to be repeated. You can cherry pick of verse of Scripture out of context and prove just about anything you want to prove.

    The verse that you have cherry picked has NOTHING to do with spiritual salvation. Let me guess you are probably Calvinist in your beliefs as well?

    For spiritual salvation you are absolutely correct!

    That's only true if we confess them (I John 1:9). Guess what? If you don't confess your sins then they aren't going to be forgiven. That's what John tells us.

    So now are you going to say that ALL Christians confess their sins?

    I do too right now, because I am living according to Scripture, and believing according to Scripture, but if either of those two fail and remain in a failed state until I die or Christ returns then I will not inherit the kingdom and neither will any other Christian that is found to be disobedient, unfaithful and overcome by their flesh, the world, satan or a combination of any of the three or all three.

    Now I know you don't believe a Christian can be unfaithful, disobedient and that all Christians overcome, but there's just ZERO Scriptural evidence to back that belief up. If there is please show it, because no one to date has been able to.
     
  13. Diggin in da Word

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    1 Corinthians 14:38 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

    Christ will not cast His own out. If you feel you could be cast out, you better have a talk with the Lord.

    If in this world only we have hope, we are of all men most miserable.

    I will not be cast out of the kingdom, I have that promise. If your lord told you that he will turn you away, you are serving the wrong lord.

    The body I am a member of will never be divided. Christ is not going to cut off His foot, or His hand. Nor will He pluck out His eye. If He did, He would not be complete.

    the god you speak of may cast away, but my God will not.
     
  14. Hope of Glory

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    If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and if we don't confess them, he is faithful and just not to forgive them.
     
  15. J. Jump

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    How about instead of arrogantly questioning someone's salvation don't you just prove your point with Scripture if you can. Or is that all you got just calling someone unsaved?

    I see that you did not provide an OT example that shows ALL Christians will be a part of the bride, and that ALL Christians will rule and reign with Christ. Do you have one? If not then your doctrine does not pass the Scripture test.
     
  16. Diggin in da Word

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    As I said, Christians cannot be found in the Old Testament. It is foolish for anyone to even suggest someone look for Christians there.

    Christ said in the Gospels to search the Scriptures for they testify of Him. He did not say look for Christians in them.

    The Scripture promises that Christ will not cast out those who come to Him. If He put them outside the kingdom, they would be cast out, thereby making Him a liar.

    Every Christian will indeed rule and reign with Him. All are promised one crown or another.

    As I said, He will not cut off part of His body or He will not be complete. Or do you think the Christians will serve a Christ with a prosthetic limb because some that were saved were not allowed in His kingdom?

    NO, my Lord is Complete, And I am complete in Him. He said He would keep me and I will hold that as truth.

    Or are you calling the Lord Jesus Christ a liar for saying He would not cast those who come to Him out? for saying no man is able to pluck them out of His hand?

    Or maybe you are calling Paul a liar for saying the dead in Christ will rise and then we which are alive and remain will be caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. So shall we EVER be WITH THE LORD.?

    It stands to reason if we are ever with the Lord, He will not cast us out, He will not set up a kingdom in which He will not admit certain saved persons.

    To preach or teach otherwise is clearly against the Word of God and downright foolish.
     
  17. Rex77

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    Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

    Ro 8:29 ΒΆ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    So after starting a work in the believer our Saviour is unable to finish the job and keep us with him eternaly ???????

    And after we are conformed to his image we are not fit for the kingdom???????


    1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    Like Christ yet not fit for the kingdom ??????
     
    #17 Rex77, Sep 28, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 28, 2006
  18. Diggin in da Word

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    Good point, Rex!

    Unfortunately, they will say that does not apply to the saved Christians who miss the kingdom.

    They are too blind to see the truth.

    I will continue to believe the Word of God and know in my heart and spirit that I too will one day be like Christ! What a glorious day that will be!

    Yes, the saved will indeed enter Christ's kingdom! Praise the Lord!
     
  19. Allan

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    I think it is quite sad that Gods lies about nothing seperating us from the love of God. He will never leave us not Forsake us. I have carved you into the palms of my hand and niether shall any man pluck them out!

    These are promises of eternal security WITH Christ. Never to be seperated from Him. The Spirit of God will never leave us -will He be in Hell to? I doubt it!

    You can not seperate any beleiver from God for any amount of time. It will make God a liar according to His promises, inept in His ability to justify, sanctify, and cleans you from ALL unrighteousness, and makes Him powerless to sustain and maintian any convenant.
     
  20. Lacy Evans

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    Ps 139:7, 8
    7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
    8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
     
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