20 QUESTIONS FOR THOSE WHO OBJECT TO MILLENNIAL EXCLUSION

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Lacy Evans, May 31, 2005.

  1. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    20 QUESTIONS FOR THOSE WHO OBJECT TO MILLENNIAL EXCLUSION



    1. In 1 Corinthians 9:27 Paul labors to keep from being a "castaway." In Luke 9, Jesus addresses His disciples (including Peter, vv.20, 23), and John and James (v.27-28), and He also warns them about the possibility of being "cast away" (v.25). Why don't you use Luke 9:25 to understand what Paul means in 1 Corinthians 9:27?



    2. Did the warning in Luke 9:25 still apply to Peter, James and John when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 9:27?



    3. If it did not, at what point did the warning that Jesus gave to Peter, James and John in Luke 9:25 cease to apply to them?



    4. Why do you think some versions destroy the link between Luke 9:25 and 1 Corinthians 9:27 (by erasing the words castaway, cast away)?



    5. In Mark 9:38, John is speaking. When the Lord answers him, who does the "thy" (second person singular) refer to in Mark 9:43?



    6. Does the phrase "ye belong to Christ" in Mark 9:41 mean that John was eternally saved?



    7. In verse 50, who is Jesus addressing?



    8. When are unbelievers bodily resurrected for judgment?



    9. Do unbelievers, according to a KJV, go to Hell after their bodily resurrection, or do they go to the Lake of Fire? (see Revelation 20:14-15)



    10. Who is Jesus warning about going to "Hell" in BODY, an unbeliever or a believer (Mark 9:47)?





    11. According to Jesus, to escape Hell is to enter the Kingdom of God in body (Mark 9:47). When does this Kingdom begin (see Luke 21:31)?



    12. When is the Last Day, mentioned by Jesus in reference to unbelievers in John 12:48?



    13. When did Jesus promise to raise up everyone who BELIEVES upon Him in John 6:40?



    14. Can you believe the Gospel, yet refuse to confess Jesus, and be a faithful believer? (see John 12:42, Matthew 10:30-32, 2 Timothy 2:12)



    15. Does Jesus have something more for believers who confess Him, live for Him, and suffer for Him? What is it?



    16. What is the "better resurrection" that many were tortured in order to receive in Hebrews 11:35?



    17. What is the "resurrection" that Paul suffered for, and for which he allowed himself to be made conformable to Christ's death in order to attain in Philippians 3:10-11?



    18. Is the Last Day the same as the Seventh Day in Hebrews 4:4-11?



    19. Since Jesus warned His disciples about the danger of going to "Hell" in soul and BODY (see Matthew 10:28), and since unbelievers only go to "Hell" in their SOUL before their resurrection, and since all unbelievers come out of "Hell" to stand at the Great White Throne, and are then cast into the Lake of Fire, was Jesus warning believers or unbelievers about going to "Hell" in their BODIES? Do modern Christians need to fear this warning?



    20. A believer can be made sick or killed by God in this life, and still possess everlasting life (John 3:16, 1 Corinthians 11:30). Where is the Bible verse that teaches that temporary chastisement in the age of the Millennial Kingdom would neutralize the promise of everlasting life, even though temporary chastisement in this life does not?
     
  2. rlvaughn

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    Hi, Lacy. I'm sure you've already engaged in a discussion with others on the board about this. But would you define your use of the term "millennial exclusion" for the rest of us? Thanks.
     
  3. OldRegular

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    I second that???
     
  4. Ed Edwards

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    Luk 9:25 (Geneva Bible):
    For what auantageth it a man, if he win
    the whole worlde, and destroy himselfe, or lose himselfe?


    This refers only to the salvation/lost divide.
    This has absolutely nothing to do with
    the fate of a person who is saved.

    I believe that the Awards ceremony in heaven
    will begin at the pretribulation
    rapture/resurrection of the saints.
    Not all saints will be reward with Millinnial
    Service on earth. Some saints will be serving
    in the Millinnial kingdom.

    No saint will ever go to hell. Eternal hell
    is well, 'eternal' and 'hell'. There are
    no temporary stints in hell.
     
  5. obscureone

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    Lacy,
    In the 2 main passages that you mention in # 1, we are dealing with two different Greek words. Different concepts, different themes.
     
  6. servant-96

    servant-96
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    1] "castaway" is referring to service, not salvation.

    2] yes

    3] It still applies today

    4] Because it promotes "do what you want" easily believeism.

    5] lost people

    6] yes

    7] disciples

    8] after the 1000 year kingdom

    9] Lake of Fire

    10] Lost people

    11] when a person recieves Christ as their savior. (see Lu.17:20,21)

    12] Physical kingdom on earth

    13] The first resurrection is not one day. It is divided in three parts:
    a]Christ
    b]church
    c]two witnesses, trib. saints

    14] Faith in the gospel is what saves you, service is another story.

    15]rewards, inheritance

    16]suffering in the cause for Christ means a "better resurrection".

    17] Paul wanted to emmulate Christ to "know the power of His resurrection"

    18] No.
    a]salvation rest v.3
    b]sabath rest v.4
    c]kingdom rest v.9
    d]cannan rest v.10

    19]only unbelievers go to hell. 2nd death has no power(Rev. 20:6) tied to the mercy seat(Heb.6:19) boldness in the day of judgement(1Jn.4:17).

    20] It doesn't
     
  7. Ed Edwards

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    Isn't it fun to post here
    and be totally ignored [​IMG] If only we could
    be the invisible man elsewhere as well.

    The error called "Millennial Exclusion" is just
    the Protestant version of the Catholic purgatory.
    But there is a true Millennial Exclusion that
    says some saints will NOT be rewared with
    Millennial Service. (Just as some saints will
    not be rewarded with being a part of the
    Armies of Heaven (see Revelation 19:14) )

    Still, we ALL shall appear before the Judgement
    Seat of Christ:

    2Co 5:10 (KJV1611 Edition):
    For we must all appeare before the iudgement seat of Christ, that euery one may receiue the things done in his body, according to that hee hath done, whether it be good or bad.
     
  8. James_Newman

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    How did I miss this thread? Anyway, Millennial Exclusion is not Protestant Purgatory. I am not a protestant, I am a Baptist. If you want to call it Baptist Purgatory, I'll accept that, but then you should at least explain the difference between Baptist Purgatory and Roman Catholic Purgatory. You might start by explaining why Roman Catholic Purgatory is unscriptural.

    Millennial Exclusion is the teaching that a believer will appear before the Lord at the judgment seat of Christ and be rewarded for his works, whether they be good or bad. A Christian may suffer loss at the judgment seat according to the Bible, but most modern day preachers will not teach the loss at the judgment seat. If they do, they say you will lose crowns. We believe dissobedient Christians will not reign with Christ during the kingdom, but will be cast into outer darkness like the Lord said would happen to wicked and slothful servants.
     
  9. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    Said by Ed. Who, though continuously regarding me as an enemy on this subject, edges ever closer to my position. A year ago Ed had never heard of the doctrine. Now he embraces at least some of the basic tenents of it. Praise God! Preach it Bro Ed! As I have said many times, there are many advocates of responsibility/eternal security of the believer who don't agree with me about Hell/outer darkness. Hey, I can be taught. Start off by explaining Mark 9.

    I'll post my (to this point unanswered) question again. What "reward" will a believer recieve at the JSOC (according to 2Cor 5:10) for the "bad" works done in the body?

    Ed, can you prove that he only misses out on some of the goodies? What about Mark 9? Also when do unbelievers go to Hell bodily? I realize they go there when they die but not in a body that could be destroyed (ala Matt 10:28). I don't see any way possible that Matt 10:28 could ever apply to anyone but a believer. They are the only ones who have a body after death but prior to the destruction of Hell in the Lake of fire in rev 20.

    Lacy
     
  10. rlvaughn

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    Lacy, I think you missed my question. I'm not interested in debating the issue, and don't intend this as a trick question. This is a term with which I am unfamiliar, and would like to see it defined by the person using it. Thanks.
     
  11. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    Dear rlvaughn,

    I sincerely apologize for taking this long to answer your question.

    Millenial Exclusion is the doctrine (taught historically by Govett, G H lang, G H Pember, S S Craig, Watchman Nee, etc., and more recently by Zane Hodges, Charles Stanley, JD Faust, Earl Radmacher, etc. ) which says that the warning verses, which are generally used to teach that a Christian can lose his salvation, in fact teach that a Christian can miss the 1000 year Kingdom of Christ.

    We believe in absolute 100% eternal security of the believer, yet we believe that there are real (and serious) negative (temporary) rewards that can be earned by a slothful, disobedient Christian walk, including banishment from the Millennial Kingdom.

    These rewards (chastisements) are meted out both in this life and possibly at the Judgnment Seat Of Christ.

    Here are a couple of links to short books on the subject.

    http://www.inthebeginning.org/schoettle/booksonline/panton/judgmentseat.htm

    http://www.inthebeginning.org/kingdom/roadhouse/believers.pdf

    Please feel free to ask me questions. I am sorry for my tardy response.

    Lacy
     
  12. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    Said by Ed. Who, though continuously regarding me as an enemy on this subject, edges ever closer to my position. A year ago Ed had never heard of the doctrine. Now he embraces at least some of the basic tenents of it. Praise God! Preach it Bro Ed! As I have said many times, there are many advocates of responsibility/eternal security of the believer who don't agree with me about Hell/outer darkness. Hey, I can be taught. Start off by explaining Mark 9.

    I'll post my (to this point unanswered) question again. What "reward" will a believer recieve at the JSOC (according to 2Cor 5:10) for the "bad" works done in the body?

    Ed, can you prove that he only misses out on some of the goodies? What about Mark 9? Also when do unbelievers go to Hell bodily? I realize they go there when they die but not in a body that could be destroyed (ala Matt 10:28). I don't see any way possible that Matt 10:28 could ever apply to anyone but a believer. They are the only ones who have a body after death but prior to the destruction of Hell in the Lake of fire in rev 20.

    Lacy
    </font>[/QUOTE]Where'd you dissappear to . . .man?
    :D :D :D
    Lacy
     
  13. LadyEagle

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    This sounds like you don't believe in eternal security. Maybe I'm misreading what you wrote??? :confused:
     
  14. Bro. James Reed

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    LadyEagle, I think she means that they'll only be in outer darkness for 1,000 years.

    Of course, since I'm amill, I obviously do not believe in this.

    Then again, the part about losing joys and receiving punishment here in this time, for a regenerate but "backslidden" Christian, sounds awfully close to Primitive Baptist doctrine.

    You're half way there Lacy. :D

    Seriously though, this is the first I have ever heard of this millennial exclusion doctrine as well, so don't feel bad Bro. Robert. ;)
     
  15. Ed Edwards

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    By golly, i think you got it!

    Lacy: "Where'd you dissappear to . . .man?"

    I read Mark 9.
    I couldn't figure out which verse(s) you meant.
    I figured you didn't know either ;)

    Lacy: "I'll post my (to this point unanswered) question again. What "reward" will a believer recieve at the JSOC (according to 2Cor 5:10) for the "bad" works done in the body?"

    The bad works are sins, the sins have been forgotten by God.
    There will be no 'reward' (punishment) for forgotten sins.
    If God punishes sins that are forgiven, then God isn't God --
    Hense, God will never punish forgiven sins for God cannot fail to
    be God.
    [​IMG]
     
  16. Lacy Evans

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    Read the original 20 questions in the initial post. esp #s 5,6,7,10, & 11.

    That's funny because earlier you said:
    * Why are they not rewarded if all their "bad works" are forgiven. How could a forgiven sin cause them to lose out on some goodies?

    * Can/does God chasten us for sins already forgiven?

    * Why have this:
    in your bible at all if it is meaningless and has no real and viable application?

    Your friend and brother, Lacy
     
  17. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    LadyEagle,
    I absolutely believe in 100% eternal security. However I believe that God chastens in this life for disobedience. That has nothing to do with salvation. So what I proposed to myself is this: What if temporary Chastening is not just possible in this life but also in the next at the JSOC? The more I studied, the more I found it to be so.

    In the Corinthian church, God made some eternally Secure, Once-saved-always-saved, believers sick and he even killed some because they didn't keep a proper attitude concerning the Lord's Table. Were their sins forgiven in an absolute sense? Of course, but in a famial practical sense, they were disobedient and carnal and subject to (very severe) fatherly discipline.

    Now when you get over to 1 Cor 6:8-10, Gal 5: 19-21, and Eph 5:3-7, we have very clear warnings to eternally Secure, Once-saved-always-saved, believers that if they do certain things they will not inherit the Kingdom. Look up the verses. It's as plain as day.

    Are they still saved? Absolutely! The Chastening at the JSOC in no way compromises the doctrine of eternal secutity.

    lacy
     
  18. OldRegular

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    Well to tell the truth I don't know a single Christian who has been excluded from the millennial reign! :D
     
  19. Ed Edwards

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    Lacy Evans: "* Why are they not rewarded if all their "bad works"
    are forgiven. How could a forgiven sin cause them
    to lose out on some goodies?//

    This is an illogical question, which is hard to answer logically.
    The time spent sinning cannot be spent doing good works which will
    be rewarded. The forgiven sin will NOT cause loss, it will cause
    the not receiving of rewards. There are tears in Heaven you know, else
    how can every tear be dryed?

    There are no whipping posts in heaven.
     
  20. James_Newman

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    Why does it then say they will be rewarded for their works *whether* they be good *or* bad? They must be rewarded for bad works.
     

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