2Cor 5:10 future Judgment Heaven or hell

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, May 11, 2013.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    This came up on an OSAS thread - but it is a topic that deserves its own focus.

    2Cor 5:10"We must all stand before the judgement seat of Christ"


    Rom 2
    16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

    Many Christians "wish" to insert qualifiers into these texts as if it say "yes but not for eternal life, just the number of toys in heaven, just the greatness of our reward".



    Note: There is no "quality of good works" statement in the Bible about that future judgment - which is a huge problem for the insert that is being attempted above.

    2Cor 5:10(NASB)10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    2 Cor 5:10
    (KJV)
    10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    Rom 6:23 "the wages if SIN is death, the free gift of God is eternal life".


    Romans 2

    4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
    5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
    6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:
    7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
    ...
    13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
    ...
    16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


    1John 3
    3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


    Romans 6

    15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
    16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
    17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
    18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.



    1 Cor 6


    7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
    8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
    9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
    10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.


    1John 2

    3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
    4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
    5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.






    Romans 2

    4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
    5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
    6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:
    7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
    8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
    10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
    11 For there is no partiality with God.
    12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
    13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
    14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
    15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
    16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.





     
  2. BobRyan

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    What IS surprises me is that Baptists appear to have a statement related to the subject above that does not try to insert that language about the future judgment being limited to non-salvific subjects. ( i.e. it does not limit the text to- rewards/toys/goodies etc - but not eternal life vs hell.)

    ============================================

    5. That GOD before the Foundation of the World hath Predestinated that all that believe in him shall-be saved, (Ephesians 1:4, 12; Mark 16:16) and al that believe not shall be damned, (Mark 16:16) all which he knew before. (Romans 8:29) And this is the Election and reprobation spoken of in the Scriptures, concerning salvation, and condemnation, and not that GOD hath Predestinated men to be wicked, and so to be damned, but that men being wicked shall be damned, for GOD would have all men saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth, (1 Timothy 2:4) and would have no man to perish, but would have all men come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9) and wills not the death of him that dies. (Ezekiel 18:32). And therefore GOD is the author of no mans condemnation; according to the saying of the Prophet. (Hosea 13). Thy destruction O Israel, is of thy self, but thy help is of me.


    6. That man is justified only by the righteousness of CHRIST, apprehended by faith, (Romans 3:28. Galatians 2:16) yet faith without works is dead. (James 2:17)


    7. That men may fall away from the grace of GOD, (Hebrews 12:15) and from the truth, which they have received &acknowledged, (Hebrews 10:26) after they have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the HOLY GHOST, and have tasted of the good word of GOD, &of the powers of the world to come. (Hebrews 6:4, 5). And after they have escaped from the filthiness of the World, may be tangled again therein &overcome. (2 Peter 2:20). That a righteous man may forsake his righteousness and perish (Ezekiel 18:24, 26). And therefore let no man presume to think that because he hath, or had once grace, therefore he shall always have grace: But let all men have assurance, that if they continue unto the end, they shall be saved: Let no man then presume; but let all work out their salvation with fear and trembling.

    http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/helwysconfession.htm
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    pretty simple truth here...

    the father sent the Son to die for the sins of those whom he would save that that Act, and ALL that he chose to save by the Cross are sealed by the HS, and have new natures, and are forever in the Kingdom of Christ!

    God accepted the payment of the Son as paid in full all sin debt owed to God, so when he applies that credit towards sinners, they are fully and forever justifed!
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    1 John 2:2 God the Father sent the Son to be "The atoning Sacrifice for OUR SINS and not for OURS SINS only but for the SINS of the WHOLE WORLD"

    The reason the "whole world" is not then saved - is because there is the Romans 10 and John 3 concept of "whosoever will" and there is the Matt 18 concept of "forgiveness revoked" also seen in Romans 11 and Gal 5:4.

    So instead of ignoring the detailed explanation Paul gives in Romans 2 regarding the 2Cor 5:10 fact that "we must all stand before the Judgment seat of Christ" -- turns out we have to pay attention to the Romans 2 text of scripture - after all. Same with Romans 11, same with Matt 18, same with Ezek 18,


    No wonder then this affirmation of that Bible truth -


    7. That men may fall away from the grace of GOD, (Hebrews 12:15) and from the truth, which they have received &acknowledged, (Hebrews 10:26) after they have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the HOLY GHOST, and have tasted of the good word of GOD, &of the powers of the world to come. (Hebrews 6:4, 5). And after they have escaped from the filthiness of the World, may be tangled again therein &overcome. (2 Peter 2:20). That a righteous man may forsake his righteousness and perish (Ezekiel 18:24, 26). And therefore let no man presume to think that because he hath, or had once grace, therefore he shall always have grace: But let all men have assurance, that if they continue unto the end, they shall be saved: Let no man then presume; but let all work out their salvation with fear and trembling.

    http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/helwysconfession.htm

    Just when someone thinks they can use some text to not read or believe some other text of scripture - turns out not to work at all.
     
    #4 BobRyan, May 13, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 13, 2013
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    ALL those that Jesus died for will get saved, as he paid in full their debts, ALL they would ever commit, so my behaviour has NOTHING to do with me being justified, but has EVERYTHING to do with being sauctified into his image!

    Jesus saves ALl that come to him, do you believe jesus when he stated that he will cast NONE out that come unto him?
     
  6. BobRyan

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    The "forgiveness revoked " teaching of Christ in Matt 18 is not a case of Christ arbitrarily "tossing out someone that comes to him" - I think we both know that to be the case.

    Rather Christ said of the unforgiving servant "I FORGAVE you ALL that debt" --

    But then in the end he RETURNS that debt and the now-lost servant must "repay ALL that was originally owed".

    Christ ends the lesson with this summary "SO shall my Father do to each one of you IF you do not...".

    And as we find out in 1John 2:2 - Jesus died "For OUR SINS and not for OUR sins only but for the SINS of the WHOLE WORLD".

    Are you universalist - or do you allow the Romans 11 and MAtt 18 teaching of Christ to explain why it is that all are not saved today?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    No, I am one who takes literally what Jesus said, that ALL that he saves shall stay saved, He will not cast ANY out...

    Either he lied or not here, which was it?
     
  8. Thomas Helwys

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    He doesn't have to cast any out when they can leave of their own accord and free will. Calvinists can't seem to get that. Of course they don't believe in free will but rather a coerced will.
     
  9. BobRyan

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    "Instead" of "All that become saved will stay saved" Jesus teaches in Matt 13 that there are 4 different kinds of ground - 3 of which become saved but only 1 "stays saved".

    Instead of Jesus teaching that all that become saved by accepting the Gospel - will always choose to stay saved - Jesus points us to the example of "Forgiveness revoked" in Matt 18.

    Instead of God teaching that all that become saved by accepting the Gospel - will always choose to stay saved - God points us to the example of the righteous that turn from their walk with God - (God who alone can produce righteousness in the saints) - and when they turn from God all their righteousness is as nothing in Ezek 18.

    Notice that in that chapter is it the real saved that are becoming lost for failure to persevere in that saved walk - and it is the real lost that are becoming saved when they turn from their rebellion.

    Ezek 18
    19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live.

    20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
    21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

    22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.
    23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
    24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
    25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies.

    27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

    29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?


    In the examples above God is not arbitrarily casting any out - rather the individuals themselves are turning away from God. "Fallen from Grace - severed FROM Christ" Gal 5:4


    And of course let's not avoid Christ's teaching in Romans 11




    Rom 11
    20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.

    21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

    22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off




    Those who teach and preach "peace and safety" will never venture near these NT texts nor Ezek 18.



    Why not? Why not embrace all the NT if not all the Bible itself?


    in Christ,


    Bob
     
  10. Yeshua1

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    was Jesus a Liar then?
    All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

    Did paul lie?
    Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

    38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

    39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Romans 8:37-39

    maybe Jude did?
    Now to Him who is able to keep you[f] from stumbling,
    And to present you faultless
    Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
    25 To God our Savior,[g]
    Who alone is wise,[h]
    Be glory and majesty,
    Dominion and power,
    Both now and forever.
    Amen.
    Nkjv Jude 1:24-25

    these were absolute promises concerning trhe saved shall NEVER be lost, so either they all lies, or your viewpoint is wrong!
     
  11. BobRyan

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    The texts that Jesus Gives in places like Matt 18 provide context (a key element of exegesis). Thus the MAtt 18 forgiveness revoked teaching is not about God abandoning the loyal faithful Christian -- rather it (like Romans 2) is about not imagining that God is in some sort of legaleeze clause where he must be saddled with a saint in rebellion and them them to heaven no matter what the Bible says to the contrary.


    BTW - you need to look at the actual text - in actual context. John 6 is precisely the place where our Catholic friends like to snippet out "eat the body and drink the blood" - while ignoring context.

    In John 6:29 Jesus said that they cannot be saved unless the do the work God gave them which is to "believe on him whom God has sent".

    AND it is JOHN who reports that Jesus said in John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments".

    And it is JOHN who reports that God commands that the one who "CLAIMES" to know and believe in Jesus must KEEP His commandments , must WALK as HE walked - or else that CLAIM is a lie.

    What you do NOT find in John 6 is your idea "he who falls away and turns to unrighteousness I will in no wise let go " - in fact Paul says to "turn such a one over to satan".


    Paul said in Romans 8 -- the chapter you are quoting that ONLY those who "By the Spirit are putting to DEATH the deeds of the flesh" are the children of God.

    By ignoring context in Romans 8 you imagine that the Romans 11 warning of Paul can be ignored -- even as you quote Romans 8.

    Your entire model relies on the idea that you would ignore the contexts of the very authors you quote and some cases the very chapters you lift a verse from.

    Thus you ignore the texts I have given showing that the General Baptists are right on this topic - and then snippet quote just one part of a chapter as if the whole chapter does not apply - even when it proves you are misreading the text.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    Jesus did NOT qualify salvation as you do here...

    the truth is that the really saved will want to please the Lord who redeemed them, having His Spirit now in them, and that they will want to read the Bible, pray, attend church, love bethren, witness etc

    NOT to get/stay saved, but fruit of them being saved!

    You want to have them saved, yet still under the law, but THAT is NOT what John meant in 1 John!
     
  13. BobRyan

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    You say that in Matt 7 the "fruit" is that of a saved person - it is not a lost person (a "bad tree" in Christ's Matt 7 example) putting on "good fruit" so as to "become saved". And of course I fully agree.

    What we are debating is what the Bible teaches about the saved -- those who "Stand by faith" as they anticipate a future judgment.

    Romans 11 tells us how the saved should look at it -


    Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

    Romans 11
    20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.






    Note:There is no "quality of good works" statement in the Bible about that future judgment - which is a huge problem for the insert that is being attempted above.

    2Cor 5:10(NASB)10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    2 Cor 5:10
    (KJV)
    10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    Rom 6:23 "the wages if SIN is death, the free gift of God is eternal life".


    Romans 2

    4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
    5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
    6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:
    7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
    ...
    13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
    ...
    16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


    1John 3
    3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


    Romans 6

    15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
    16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
    17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
    18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.



    1 Cor 6


    7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
    8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
    9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
    10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.


    1John 2

    3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
    4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
    5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.






    Romans 2

    4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
    5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
    6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:
    7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
    8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
    10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
    11 For there is no partiality with God.
    12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
    13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
    14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
    15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
    16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
     
    #13 BobRyan, May 25, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 25, 2013
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    Guess the prophetess did not have Romans 8:1 in her bible, eh?
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Is that your "solution" to Bible texts that do not please the preference you are holding?

    Hint - that is not how "sola scriptura" testing of doctrine works.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     

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