2ed of 2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Ed Edwards, Oct 10, 2005.

  1. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    2ed of 2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

    Prophecynut: //Some versions have "day of Christ" and others have "day of the Lord," with the latter being correct due to the context of this chapter. The Thessalonians were suffering trials and tribulations somewhat similar to what the day of the Lord would be like. Mentioned in this chapter is the man of lawlessness, opposition to God, works of Satan, counterfeit miracles, every sort of evil and wickedness. Surely this points to the Tribulation and that day of judgment and not to the day of Chirst and his glorious appearing for the Church.//

    This is phase two of our interesting discussion ...

    The old topic #1: 2 Thess 2:1-4, the Rapture is at:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/28/3350.html?
     
  2. Ed Edwards

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    The Thessalonians were familiar with
    this saying of Jesus which we now find
    recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

    But he that shall endure unto
    the end, the same shall be saved.


    But some said of their friend "He got
    sick and died before Jesus came to
    get him, poor soul."

    Paul addresses this problem in
    a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
    one of the most comforting passages in the
    Bible.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

    13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
    brethren, concerning those who have fallen
    asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
    have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
    rose again, even so God will bring with Him
    those who sleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
    that we who are alive and remain until
    the coming of the Lord will by no means
    precede those who are asleep.
    16 For the Lord Himself will descend
    from heaven with a shout, with the voice
    of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
    And the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain
    shall be caught up (raptured)
    together with them in the clouds to meet
    the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
    always be with the Lord
    .
    18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
    5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
    brethren, you have no need that I should
    write to you.
    2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
    the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
    in the night.
    3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
    then sudden destruction comes upon them,
    as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
    And they shall not escape.
    4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
    so that this Day should overtake
    you as a thief.
    5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
    We are not of the night nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
    but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
    and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
    8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
    putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
    and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
    9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation through our
    Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
    we should live together with Him
    .
    11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
    one another
    , just as you also are doing.

    Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
    had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
    in a second letter:

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

    1 Now, brethren, concerning
    the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    and our gathering together to Him,
    we ask you
    ,
    2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
    either by spirit or by word or by letter,
    as if from us, as though the day of Christ
    had come
    .
    3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
    for that Day will not come unless
    the falling away comes first,
    and the man of sin
    is revealed, the son of perdition,

    The falling away that comes first
    is the Rapture!
    Then the man of sin is revealed, the
    antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
    begins.

    While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
    English versions before the KJV used a
    form of "departure" - again, the idea of
    someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation
    rapture/resurrection

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible):
    Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
    not come, except there come a departing first, and that
    that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,


    There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
    the rapture.
    Here are some things that could happen
    before the rapture but they do NOT
    have to happen.

    1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
    2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
    (the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
    Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
    Tribulation period)
    3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
    on Mount Moriah north of and alongside
    the Dome of the Rock.

    But again, these things do not HAVE
    TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
    happen after the rapture; they could happen
    before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
    HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
    rapture.
     
  3. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Ed,

    Matt. 24:13 is not talking about the future seven year tribulation period. This verse is speaking to us, that we should be faithful and be endure throughout our life, and do not give up while facing trials, tribulations, persecutions, etc. till we die or Christ comes, then we shall overcometh them as we endureth i. Same with Rev. 2:10 tells us, any person who is endureth in tribulations or persecution till death, then will have victory.

    The context of 1 Thess. 4:13 thru 5:11 focus on the same topic talking about Christ's coming. Day of the Lord is same as day of Christ. Day of the Lord shall not be occured till after cosmic disturbance happened first. Day of the Lord is not so called, 'seven year tribulation period'. It is the day for the Lord to come and to judge the world at His coming. Day of the Lord shall be revealed at His coming at the end of the age. Day of the Lord is the day of wrath.

    The context of 1 Thess. 4:13-18 do not proved us, this shall be occured before tribulation. 'Comfort' of 1 Thess. 4:18 is not talking about escape from tribulaiton, but to encourage one each other of brothers and sisters in Christ, who lose their loves one, that they shall see their loves one again. That would be a wonderful hope and a great reunion day.

    1 Thess. 5:11 of 'comfort' is not talking about escape from tribulation, but to urge them each other, while face hard times. Same with 2 Thess. 1:3-7 telling us, that we should to comfort and to edify each other while facing tribulations and persecutions, that we shall not be rest from it TILL when Christ shall come with his angels. That shall be at His coming at the end of the age-2 Thess. 2:7-10.

    'Falling away' of 2 Thess. 2:3- does not proved it is rapture. Also, I rather use Textus Receptus translation word for 'falling away' means 'apostasia'. I use STRONG's Concordance for 'falling away' in Greek word is 'apostasia'. It means, depart from the faith, depart from truth. We already see the sign of apostasy everywhere today.

    Apostle Paul tells us, do not let anyone to deceive us of any false teaching on the timing of His coming, Paul tells us, DAY SHALL NOT COME(our gathering together at Christ's coming/day of Christ) till come a falling away FIRST. Obivously, it cannot be pretribulational. We must first see two things must to come pass- apostasy, and the revealed of Antichrist.

    Read 2 Thess. 2:1-4 is NOT hard for you to understand. It is very clear. Why cannot you accept what Apostle Paul actual saying?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  4. Me4Him

    Me4Him
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    I'd suggest reading the "Feast days", Jesus has already made "ATONEMENT" for the church, "IN HIS FLESH", that's why the "Body of Christ" will literally "PASSOVER" the coming "DAY OF ATONEMENT" for the rest of the world, and they will suffer "STRIPES" in their own flesh.

    Ps 89:20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
    Ps 89:30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
    31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
    32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

    Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, (AC) the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

    1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, (stripes in their flesh)

    that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    God uses the AC as a "ROD" to chastise Israel for their rejection of Jesus, but that "Chastisement" doesn't apply to the church, so we
    PASSOVER it.

    God never does anything without explaining "WHY", and the "WHY" must be understood "FIRST".
    The DAY OF CHRIST, Jesus is a BRIDEGROOM, coming only for his bride. (rapture)

    The DAY OF THE LORD Jesus is coming to "LORD" over the whole earth.

    The DAY OF GOD Jesus will sit on th GWT to judge the world.

    Jesus goes from:
    Bridegroom,
    Lord of Lords,
    King of Kings.
    I think you'll find the "COMFORTER", who is greater than Satan, must be taken out of the way before the AC can have "POWER" over "ALL" kindren, tongues and nations.

    Ec 4:1 and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

    besides, Jesus has already made atonement for the church.


    The "Falling away" is a "Spiritual Falling", but to fall, you've had to been higher than you are now, the unsaved has never been high enough to fall, get my point??

    The stronger the spirit is among the SAVED, the less Evil there is among the unsaved, the growing evil in the world is a sign of the "weaking/quenching" of the spirit among the saved.

    And it gets to the point that God take both the faithful/Spirit (comforter) out of the world and "literally" gives the rest over to satan.

    1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    Unless you explain "WHY" these events occur, you really don't understand the rapture or the trib. [​IMG]
     
  5. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    There will be a rapture as described in Thess.

    It has nothing to do with a 7th year that has been floating in space for 2000 years.

    There will be an antichrist. He has nothing to do with Dan 9-26 & 27.

    There will be a tribulation. It does not have to be 3 1/2 or 7 years in duration.

    Selah,

    Tam
     
  6. Me4Him

    Me4Him
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    [​IMG]
     
  7. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    So??? :eek: [​IMG]

    I'm pretty sure you are still mixing scriptures willy nilly. But you need to explain your graph, because it jumps from here to there and back.

    Step back and look at what we are saying. Think about it! Don't just believe it just because someone told you.

    Selah,

    Tam
     
  8. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    Rev 13-5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

    That is not the same as Dan 9-26 and 27.

    I believe that we will go through the tribulation, as believers. I believe we are aleady in the woes, the beginning of tribulation.

    If it is this bad now, (hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, etc.) what will the future hold? We will be raptured at the last trump! What must we encure in the meantime? Only God knows!!

    Peace,

    Tam
     
  9. prophecynut

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    Your graph is close to what happens in the future.

    Correct:

    Daniel's 70th week at the end of the 6th day or this Age. The 7th day being the Millennium.

    Confirming of the 7 year covenant.

    Having peace, flatteries in the first half and war, murder in the second half.

    Dn. 9:27 and Mark 13:14 at mid point.

    Rev. 13:5 and the 42 month reign of the AC in the second half.


    Corrections:

    The revealing of the AC is prior to mid point (2:Thess 2:4,7-8).

    Casting down of Satan is at mid point (Rev. 12:7-9).

    Delete Feast of Trumpets and Day of Atonement, Jewish customs have nothing to do with the Church.

    The "taken out of the way" is the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit being removed allowing the AC to be revealed, and not taken out of this world.

    Sequence of events:

    7 year covenant.
    Peace, flatteries.
    Revealing of the AC.
    Rapture.

    Casting down of Satan.
    Abomination, sacrifices stopped.
    Reign of the AC, war and murder.
     
  10. Me4Him

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    If you had read the link I posted, under the antichrist, I explained this problem of Satan/AC both appearing at the start of the seven years trib, but the AC only being given 42 months or half of the trib.

    I'm not going to retype it here.

    And neither does Jesus being crucified on "passover". :eek: :rolleyes:
    The "Comforter" leaves the earth, it is "unique" to the church, the HOLY GHOST is the "Voice of Jesus", it comes/goes with the church,

    Israel didn't have a 'Comforter", but they did have a "HOLY SPIRIT".

    Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

    Don't forget the "TRINITY", it explains scripture.
     
  11. Me4Him

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    Trumpets were blown at both the feast of trumpets and in the "Day of atonement", with the day of atonement trumpet known as the "last trumpet".

    These "FEAST" all "FORESHADOW" events in the NT.

    And yes, we are very close to the rapture, about six years or less, according to the parables of the Fig trees.
     
  12. DeafPosttrib

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    Tonight, I will discuss on the identify of 'he' of 2 Thess. 2:6-7, and showing you why I disagree with pretrib's method of interpreting on 2 Thess. 2:6-7. Pretrib inteprets 'he' of 2 Thess. 2:7 is the Holy Spirit as restrainer. That the Holy Spirit will leave earth as rapture. I disagree with them. Tonight, I will discuss on 2 Thess. 2:6-8, what Apostle Paul was talking baout.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  13. prophecynut

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    And neither does Jesus being crucified on "passover". :eek: :rolleyes:

    Jesus did fulfill passover before the Church began at Pentecost in the month of Sivan. The Festivals are not used in the timing of future events.
     
  14. Ed Edwards

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    DeafPosttrib: //'Falling away' of 2 Thess. 2:3- does not proved it is rapture.

    //Also, I rather use Textus Receptus translation word for 'falling away' means

    //'apostasia'. I use STRONG's Concordance for 'falling away' in Greek word is

    //'apostasia'. It means, depart from the faith, depart from truth. We already see

    //the sign of apostasy everywhere today. //

    What does 'apostasy' mean? What are its signs?

    2Th 2:3 (Geneva Bible, 1585):
    Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come,
    except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne
    be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

    Why does half a dozen Bibles before the KJV say some form
    of 'departing'? It says 'departing' because the church shall be
    departing this world in the rapture before the Tribulation.

    2Th 2:1 (KJV1611 Edition): Now wee beseech you, brethren,
    by the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ,
    and by our gathering together vnto him,

    We are discussing the meaning of 'AND' here. 'AND' is a conjuncion
    and the discussion is: Does this word 'and' here connect:

    1. two descriptions of the same event, or
    2. two seperate events

    The only difference it makes is that 1 gives no hope
    and 2 gives hope. So those who doubt the Lord's ability to
    to deliver them from the Tribulation period should feel free
    to believe #1.

    If you have Hope that the Lord will deliver the church from
    the Tribulation Time, when the Lord brings hell to earth
    for sinful men - then feel free to believe #2.

    Deafposttrib: //We must first see two things must to come pass- apostasy, and the

    revealed of Antichrist.//

    And yet you have a demonstrated ability to NOT have a clue as
    to what either the 'apostasy' nor the 'revelation of Antichrist'
    is about. 'Apostasy' we have already explained as hopefully the
    falling away of the saints from this world right into the hands of Jesus.
    'The revelation of Antichrist' is when the world recognizes that
    he is a force to contend with. This will mark the beginning of the
    7-year Tribulation Period. Others say that the revelation of Antichrist
    is when he goes into the OPERATIONAL PHYSICAL temple in Jerusalem
    and declares himself to be God. I believe this to be
    part of the mid-tribularion crises.
     
  15. Ed Edwards

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    Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

    0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
    1. rapture/resurrection event
    2. Tribulation time
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
    5. new heaven & new earth

    The time line according to Matthew 24
    (Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
    Mark 13, Luke 21):

    0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
    Matthew 24:4-15

    1. rapture/resurrection event
    Matthew 24:31-44

    2. Tribulation time
    Matthew 24:21-28

    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    Matthew 24:29-30)

    Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
    (4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
    (5. new heaven & new earth)

    The time line according to Revelation:

    0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 &lt;== you are here!
    1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
    2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
    4. literal MK=millennial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
    5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

    The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

    0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
    (implied, until the falling away)

    1. rapture/resurrection
    v.1 - gathering together unto him
    v.3 - falling away

    2. Tribulation time
    (time of the man of sin)

    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    v.8

    Not mentioned:
    (4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
    (5. new heaven & new earth)

    BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
    before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
    So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
    in error, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture
    as will 90% of Baptists and kindred Christians.
     
  16. BobRyan

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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Delete Feast of Trumpets and Day of Atonement, Jewish customs have nothing to do with the Church.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Christ died ON Passover and was was raised ON the feast of first fruits. Christ "Our Passover has been slain" (1Cor 5) and Christ rose from the grave as the "FIRST FRUITS of the Deat" 1Cor 15.

    To pretend that God had only pointless goals in mind when He set these Gospel images in motion -- is to ignore the clear teaching of scripture.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

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    I thought we saw that and then made the correction "here"

    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3350/5.html#000063

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. BobRyan

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    The question is asked as to how this fits with the future predicted in 2Thess 2:1-7 where the "man of sin" causes all to fall that do not "have a love of the truth".

    The answer is -- "perfectly".

    In Both Matt 24 and 2Thess 2 we see the same thing presented PRIOR to the return of Christ in the air to "receive us to Himself" and take us to that "place He has prepared for us" in His Father's house.

    And THEN we see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven - (as described in Matt 24 FUTURE to th writing of that Gospel).

    In the same way - before the return of Christ we ALSO see the deception that is predicted (future to Paul's day)


     
  19. BobRyan

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  20. BobRyan

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    Ok Might as well make that "here" on this thread as well.


    Let me make this simple using the same example of Matt 24 so you see it in the same terms you used and the difference shows up loud and clear.

    --------------------------------------

    The time line according to Matthew 24

    1. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
    Matthew 24:4-15


    2. Tribulation time
    Matthew 24:21-28


    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    Matthew 24:29-30)

    4. rapture/resurrection event
    Matthew 24:31-44, Rev 20:4-5

    5. Millennium - Rev 20:5-end

    ------------------------

    Notice that my numbering follows the same text sequence of Matt 24 instead of being jumbled up?
     

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