2nd Thessalonians 2:3 and the rapture

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by david reed, Sep 5, 2001.

  1. david reed

    david reed
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    Hello,
    I have been saved for twenty years, and have been preaching for the past seventeen
    years. I have been a serious student of the
    Word all my Christian life. God has blessed
    and allowed me to receive an Associates as
    well as a Bachelors degree from the finest
    Baptist school in America, and still this passage puzzles me. Is the "falling away"
    the raptue of the church or is it apostacy
    in the last days? What is your opinion? [​IMG]
     
  2. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by david reed:
    Hello,
    I have been saved for twenty years, and have been preaching for the past seventeen
    years. I have been a serious student of the
    Word all my Christian life. God has blessed
    and allowed me to receive an Associates as
    well as a Bachelors degree from the finest
    Baptist school in America, and still this passage puzzles me. Is the "falling away"
    the raptue of the church or is it apostacy
    in the last days? What is your opinion? [​IMG]
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 1 ¶ Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
    2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
    3 ¶ Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
    4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
    5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
    6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
    7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
    8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. NKJV <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The Rapture (post-trib, of course, :D ) is mentioned in verse 1 (our gathering together to Him). Verse 3 says that day, the Lord's Return will not come until the falling away (apostasy, NASB) comes. In the apostasy, the man of sin will be revealed, but "The Lord will consume [him] with the breath of His mouth and destroy [him] with the brightness of His coming", verse 8. :D
     
  3. G.B.MAC.

    G.B.MAC.
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    Is there a rapture?
    I am not sure but I don't see it.
    Matthhew 24
    Mark 13
    Jesus tells us what to do when Antichrist comes.
    2nd Thess. 2 Tells us when.
    Ezekiel 13:20
    Has Satan covered the truth with a "Rapture" pillow?
    I dont want trouble, Just the truth.
    G.B.MAC.
     
  4. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by G.B.MAC.:
    Is there a rapture?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    GBMAC:

    The question is not is there a rapture (from the latin) but rather when . I Thess 4:16-17 assures us of believers being caught up. However, it is not invisible, as v 16 tells us "the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first."

    And as G.E. Ladd has shown, the Redeemed of God then return with him to the earth to reign in the millennium.
     
  5. John Wells

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    To answer the original question, “The falling away” is The Apostasy called the "abomination of desolation" that takes place at the midpoint of the Tribulation, spoken of in Dan. 9:27; 11:31 and Matt. 24:15. The "man of sin" is the one who is called “the prince who is to come” (Dan. 9:26) and “the little horn” (Dan. 7:8), whom John calls “the beast” (Rev. 13:2–10,18) and most know as the Antichrist. These verses do not refer to the "rapture" and thus should not play in the pre-trib/post-trib rapture debate.
     
  6. Dr. Bob

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    Amen, John. As a rabid pre-trib'er, I have never used nor seen used this text in the debate.

    Day of Christ (or Day of the Lord) is coming. It will last 7 years. Prior to that is a great apostasy.

    Now I believe the rapture will START the 7 years. Others believe in the "yo-yo" (raptured up, come right back down) at the end of the 7 years/start of the reign of Christ.

    Either way, THIS passage is moot.
     
  7. G.B.MAC.

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    I do belive in the gathering back to Christ. But the any moment theory is weak at best. I notice many times, Man likes to insert the word "rapture" into a verse. The present it as evidence.Who can spell out all the verses that speak of a any moment rapture? I would like to look at them. Thank you.
    G.B.MAC.
     
  8. John Wells

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    After the dead come forth, their spirits, already with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23), now being joined to resurrected new bodies (1 Cor. 15:35-50), the living Christians will be raptured, lit. snatched away (cf. John 10:28; Acts 8:39). This passage, along with John 14:1-3 and 1 Cor. 15:51,52, form the biblical basis for "the Rapture" of the church. The time of the Rapture cannot be conclusively determined from this passage alone. However, when other texts such as Rev. 3:10 and John 14:3 are consulted and compared to the texts about Christ's coming in judgment (Matt. 13:34-50; 24:29-44; Rev. 19:11-21) at the end of a 7 year tribulation, it has to be noted that there is a clear difference between the character of the "Rapture" in that there is no mention of any judgment, while the other texts feature judgment. So then, it is best to understand that the Rapture occurs at a time different from the coming of Christ in judgment. Thus, the Rapture has been described as pretribulational (before the wrath of God unfolded in the judgments of Rev. 6-19). This event includes complete transformation (cf. 1 Cor. 15:51,52; Phil 3:20,21) and union with the Lord Jesus Christ that never ends. -- John F. MacArthur, Jr., The MacArthur Study Bible, (Dallas: Word Publishing) 1997.
     
  9. G.B.MAC.

    G.B.MAC.
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    Mr.Wells,
    Thank you.
    2nd cor. 5:8.- Very true but no rapture ref.
    Phil. 1:23.- True again, no rapture yet. I want to be with God also. Oh yeah, much better to be with God.
    1.Cor. 15:35-50.- Yes we have two bodies. No any moment rapture yet.
    Jonh 10:28.- I belive that. no rapture ref.
    Acts 8:39.- Philip was transported some where else on earth, no problem. Weak ref. "caught away", that is what happened. NO CHANGE TO A SPIRIT BODY. Dont see any moment rapture yet.
    John 14:1-3.- Yes we all know he is coming. No any moment rapture here.
    1. Cor. 15:51-52.-O.K. Not all die. No problem, we know he will return. When he comes with those who have died in christ already. All alive in flesh will change ."At the last trump" is a good clue.
    Well I don't see it yet. I do see it when we put the word "rapture" in the text. I am not sure I want to do that.
    G.B.MAC.
     
  10. For His Name

    For His Name
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    Can I say I am having "flashbacks" from the previous rapture posts? (I am joking .. I realize this thread is when not if) ... 2nd Thess. 2: 3 forward. Let us look at this verse.. I think we can all agree the verse to say the falling away comes first ..
    translation: the falling away are the ones that follow Satan.
    The Son of Perdition is revealed .. who is this son .. (remembering the Son of Perdition has been prejudged) ... Satan. Now we have Satan and his followers....
    Let no man deceive you ... means just that. Satan will return first. The Christians are still here. The day of the true Christ shall not come until these things happen and Satan reveals himself as the true Christ.
    Matthew 24:22 ... but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened ..
    what days? ... the trib.
    who are the elect? ... the Christians .. they are still here.

    I do not understand how we can say that Daniel is not important when discussing things to come. Daniel tells us all things future. We can not discuss the future with out including Daniel.

    Anyone who has read my posts in the past knows I am a KJV advocate. The translation of these verses from a translation of the KJV changes the meanings.
    Your friend in Christ ......
     
  11. John Wells

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    For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (1 Th 4:16-17 NIV)

    Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. (Rev 3:10 NIV)

    "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God ; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. (John 14:1-3 NIV)

    1 Thes 4:16-17 and John 14:1-3 makes little sense in a post-trib rapture. In what sense do believers go to the Father's house, if they return immediately to rule with Christ on earth? Why would believers be "caught up in the air" to be with Christ if we turn right around and come back to earth to begin the millennial reign? The church is also not mentioned from after Revelation chapter 3.

    G.B.MAC., if you're looking for the word "rapture," it immediately follows the word "trinity" everywhere it appears in scripture! :D

    [ September 08, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]
     
  12. G.B.MAC.

    G.B.MAC.
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    You are good! The dead in christ shall rise first. no big deal right, Those who have gone before will come with him. It is so important to get it right. Lets do a good study. I like you Mr. wells. You are the scale man.
    G.B.MAC. [​IMG] In every story in the bible every one who faced a trial went through it. Protected by God but not spared the trip. See my piont? Stay and stand, Dont fly. It is late tomarrow we will study.
    [​IMG]

    [ September 08, 2001: Message edited by: G.B.MAC. ]
     
  13. Gina B

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    And what sense does II Thes. chap. 20 or I Cor 15:52 make?
    The whole chapter in Thess. deals with the rapture, and speaks of that day of the Lord not happening until the sop sits in the temple as God. I Cor. says that at the last trump. the dead in Christ will rise.....which happens at the rapture.....and when does the last trump sound?
    Does any of it fit together? How?
    Can anyone here take ALL the separate verses from the pre, mid, and post tribs and show how they fit together and do not contradict?
    (da) Gina
     
  14. John Wells

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    G.B.MAC.,

    Thanks. I'm just a humble diligent student of God's Word.

    Dr. Charles Stanley states that Rev 3:10 is his primarly basis for believing in a pre-trib rapture: "I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth."

    Contrast this with: He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water." (Rev 14:7 NIV)

    So, "hour of trial" and "hour of his judgment" sound like two different events to me. "Hour of his judgment" is no doubt the Great White Throne judgment of non-believers. "hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth" refers to the tribulation, the only world-wide "test" that the Bible mentions. The verse says, paraphrased: For those believers who have persevered, who have fought the good fight, who have finished the race, I will reward you by keeping you from a trial that I am going to test the entire world with."

    Your brother in Christ,
    John
     
  15. John Wells

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    Sister Gina,

    I wish to look at three descriptions of the "rapture."

    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Th 4:16-17 KJV)

    In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor 15:52 KJV)

    "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. (Mat 24:29-31 NASB)

    Yes, this last one states it is after the tribulation, but if the church is raptured prior to the tribulation, those who come to Christ during the tribulation and are still alive will be gathered as well. Will there be many?

    After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; (Rev 7:9 NASB)

    And one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and from where have they come?" And I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev 7:13-14 NASB)

    So there will be "too numerous to count" people to be gathered in the Matthew reference. Therefore, the Matthew and 1 Corinthians passages do not diminish the significance of Rev. 3:10. "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation" contrasted to what? Before the tribulation perhaps?

    Now about "when does the last trump sound?" There is no scriptural basis for a "final trumpet call of God" type understanding. Matthew 24:29-31 is significantly different from the Thess. and Corinthian passages. In Matthew, the angels are blowing their trumpets going to the "four winds" to gather the elect. The trumpets are blowing while the elect are gathered (nothing secretive here).

    The 1 Cor and 1 Thess passages are similar to one another, and very different from the acknowledged “after the tribulation” event of Matthews. The differences are: 1) The Lord shouts, 2) the dead in Christ rise first (no mention of them in Matthew), 3) All the tribes of the earth see Jesus coming on the clouds in Matthew but not so in the others, 4) The sense is that 1 Cor and 1 Thess are instantaneous (“in the twinkling of an eye”), whereas Matthew gives the sense of a little longer timeframe involved.

    I believe Rev 3:10 and the differences noted in the above paragraph provide a viable case for belief in a pre-tribulation rapture.

    God bless!

    [ September 08, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]
     
  16. G.B.MAC.

    G.B.MAC.
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    John
    Have you ever heard DR.Arnold Murray, From the Shepherds Chapel teach on the rapture?
    G.B.MAC.
     
  17. John Wells

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    Can't say that I have.
     
  18. Chris Temple

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    One thing that makes eschatology and its components so difficult to discuss and debate in a forum is that so much more is involved than simply looking at selected texts. Eschatology is steeped in theology and soteriology. What is God's central purpose in redemptive history? What is his plan for all peoples? Are there two people of God, or one? Is the church Spiritual Israel?

    All of these topics must be covered one by one, and often involve writing major tomes defending one's beliefs. It is something that will not be settled on a discussion board. ;)

    For a good presentation of non-dispensational eschatology, see Eschatology at Graceonline as well as dispensationalism critiqued
     
  19. Gina B

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    Mr. Wells, thank you for your reply to my previous question.
    da Gina
     
  20. John Wells

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    Let me add that as a pre-trib rapture believer, I am fully prepared, should I be wrong, to deal with the trials should The Tribulation begin tomorrow. Some post-tribbers have accused us pre-tribbers as being escapists, and blame us for "a teaching that will cause many to fall away from their faith when the pre-trib rapture doesn't happen."

    The only folks who would fall away from their faith over being disappointed in the expectation of a pre-trib rapture are not true believers anyway. They were religious practicioners who were in it for what they hoped to gain out of it. They were not God's elect.

    Once again, I believe there is a viable case in the scriptures for a pre-tribulation rapture; not an iron-clad case, but a reasonable one. If the tribulation starts tomorrow, I will pray "Lord, show me how you want to use me during these unbelievably hard times. Lord, not my will, but your will be done. Come Lord Jesus and reign on earth!"
     

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