2Tim 3:12

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by freeatlast, Mar 17, 2011.

  1. freeatlast

    freeatlast
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    Persecution because of the Christian faith is not usually thought of or experienced in this country. Yet we are told in an absolute way that every person who seeks to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. The word does not say some will or some might. It is dogmatic that every person who seeks to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution for it.
    Now I don't think the heated debates on some discussion board is what it being pointed to.
    More likely at least in this area of the world it would be things like not getting certain promotions, losing a job or not getting the job, not being included in the crowd, being criticized for our stance on issues by being called legalists or just being made to feel foolish as well as even possible physical violence. So if we are not experiencing personal persecution because of seeking to live godly or have never experienced personal persecution because of our desire to live godly would it be fair to say we do not have the desire?
    2Tim 3:12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
     
  2. sag38

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    It's one thing to be persecuted in one form or another for serving Christ. But, some folks deliberately bring on so called persecution when in fact it is them who are doing the persecution. We could call it reverse persecution.

    The man who put up a huge lighted cross in his yard that disturbed his neighbors and then claimed that he was being persecuted while he was the one persecuting his neighbors. I'd be upset too if the light from his religious symbol shined in my window every night.

    The woman riding the city bus to church on Sunday mornings and read the Bible out loud to her brood of children. Only problem is that everyone else on the bus had to listen to her and some complained and was their right to do so. Who knows, I may have complained too and I like to hear the Bible read. But, this lady would be forcing it on me and I'm not too keen on that. She claimed that she was being persecuted. Yet, she was forcing others to listen to something they didn't want too.

    Expecting pagans to act like Christians in the work place. It's one thing to live a godly life before lost. It's quite another to try and impose that lifestyle on others. When a pagan calls him or her on it, said Christian yells "persecution," when in fact it is not. It's reverse persecution.
     
  3. freeatlast

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    While you statements are true they are also non responsive to the question. This is not about those who seek a righteousness of their own, but about those who seek to live godly in Christ Jesus. Would it be fair to say if we are not or have never suffered persecution for desiring to live godly, we are not or have never lived godly?
     
    #3 freeatlast, Mar 17, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 17, 2011
  4. sag38

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    It seems as if you a developing a test for godliness. Define persecution? How far does it have to go in order to prove that we have, as you called it, "lived godly"?

    I have been ridiculed because I didn't participate in the sexual innuendo at work. But, compared to a man thrown in prison for proclaiming Christ the ridicule I suffered is nothing. How much persecution must one endure to pass the test?
     
  5. quantumfaith

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    Would the "general" tone of criticism and scorn relegated to Christianity by our media and "at large" culture be considered a form of persecution? Does it need to be personally directed? Does it need to rise to the level of violence and/or martyrdom?
     
  6. Amy.G

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    I think so. In general, the church is mocked and criticized and every Christian is put into a little box labeled "self righteous" by the general population of unbelievers.

    It's also persecution when your own family members turn against you because of your faith in Christ and willingness to obey Him. This doesn't affect us physically but is totally heartbreaking and affects our mind and emotions. I'm sure some have abandoned the faith because of it.
     
  7. Iconoclast

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    If we positvely obey the scriptures there will be times when this takes place.
    This section of scripture helps frame out the discussion as to if the persecution is because of desiring to live godly,or some self centered reasons.
     
  8. freeatlast

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    The answer is no. What the media would do does not qualify under this verse. it is about personal persecution because someone seeks to live godly, not about a general persecution because of a name.
     
  9. Scarlett O.

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    I've never undergone personal persecution.

    I've never been imprisoned, beaten, threatened, or kidnapped. An acquaintaince on another board who is from South Africa was kidnapped a couple of weeks ago and shot in the head. He died because he spoke out in the name of the Lord.

    I have met a man, Yonki, from Indonesia. He is a Gideon there. He puts himself, every single day, in harm's way. Pastors there are murdered in the pulpit. Churches are burnt to the ground. Between 800-1,000 a year according to Yonki. When he was here for a while in the states, I met him. I talked to him and told him that what he was doing was beyond words that I could express. I told him that while he was here to tell every American that he could personally talk to what was going on in Indonesia with Christians. We talked for a while. The last thing he said to me while looking intently and piercingly into my eyes was "Never forget to pray for me".

    I have never forgotten.

    Me - suffer persecution?

    Well, sometimes I pull my car over, get my "car Bible" out, and talk to a few of the Mormon boys that I see. I've been rejected every single time - without fail. I don't consider that persecution.

    I've talked to MANY non-believers on the internet who are truly looking for answers. They are so confused, rebellious, and angry. They've listened to me, asked me tons of questions, and even sought me out for the purpose of listening to what I had to say. Yet in the end, they could NOT let go of "self" and ended up rejecting the Message. One of them said to me - "You are so intelligent, it's too bad that you are a Christian." I don't consider that persecution.

    I've talking to misguided Christians on the internet who are so entrenched in a works-based theology that I am not even sure that they are saved. I don't tell them that, but have conversed with them as if they weren't - showing them the grace and mercy of God and holiness that we are supposed to emulate of His. I have been called "pagan", "unsaved", "trash", and worse - (trust me). I don't consider that persecution.

    Persecution, to me, is when something of human value is taken from you. Your life, your safety, your peace of mind, your freedom, your family, your right to worship as you please, or your Bible.

    None of this has been taken from me.

    I've suffered a few MINOR indignities, but have come away feeling quite sorry for the person who slung them at me and worried moreso about THEM. I came away quite intact. I suffered nothing really.

    I have suffered no persecution.

    So - am I still a godly person? I think so. Am I perfect. GADS, no!
     
    #9 Scarlett O., Mar 17, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2011
  10. Amy.G

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    That's what I was talking about, when you lose family or friends because they can't handle your faith in Christ.
     
  11. InTheLight

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    So that is what Paul was talking about--being passed over for a promotion or not being popular?

    Your definition of persecution: FAIL!
     
  12. DHK

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    Having the desire to live Godly lives is one thing. Living a Godly life is another. Living it requires obedience; submission to the will of God.

    A couple years after I was saved, because of my witness to my family (Catholic), my father told me to leave and never come back again.

    During my life as a Christian I have done much door-to-door visitation.
    I have been thrown down a flight of stairs by an angry tenant.
    I have had many doors slammed in my face.
    I have been cursed at, and even threatened.
    And all of that was in Canada.

    Worse things have happened on the foreign mission field.
     
  13. freeatlast

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    You can interpret what the parameters any way you want, but the bottom line is if you are not being persecuted then you are not desiring to live godly.
     
  14. sag38

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    I think it is a dangerous thing when we start to use persecution as a litmus test for godliness.
     
  15. freeatlast

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    A more dangerous thing is to reject the word of God, but you might want to tear that passage out of your bible then since that is what it teaches.
     
    #15 freeatlast, Mar 17, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 17, 2011
  16. sag38

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    I'm not denying the Word of the Lord. I'm just not comfortable with the perception of where you are going with this. Are you going to develop a persecution test to determine whether or not someone has been truly persecuted? And, if he or she fails the test, will you be the one to tell him or her that he or she really isn't a Christian?
     
  17. freeatlast

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    The OP is the question nothing else.
     
  18. Robert Snow

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    Maybe the statement is meant in a general way. Overall, throughout the ages and around the world, Christians have been persecuted for their stand for Christ. We live in the United States of America, which has been a haven for Christianity throughout the ages, at least until now.

    Like the verse:

    Proverbs 22:6 (KJV)
    This is a general statement that does not necessarily refer to every living person. There are instances where children have departed from the faith regardless of their training.

    Also:

    Ephesians 6:1-3 (KJV)
    There are children who have obeyed their parents, yet have died while still a child because of illness or an accident. That doesn't mean they were disobedient children. This is a general statement.
     
  19. freeatlast

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    The passage has nothing to do with the time period in history or where in the world the Christian is living. it is a dogmatic promise that all who seek to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. The type of persecution will vary but the persecution will be real in all times for all who fit this category.
     
  20. Robert Snow

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    How did I know you would disagree?

    I guess then that no obedient children ever did before they grow old. Right? (Hint: Look at my previous posting for a clue)
     

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