3 classes of People

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jarthur001, Jul 15, 2006.

  1. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    1 Cor

    The 3 Classes..

    1) The Jews that were given the Word, and looked for a sign, but did not believe the sign when it came...and are still looking.
    2) The Greek, that thought all this "God stuff" is for fools.
    3) The called (invited) whom come from both groups and Whom God has choosen to invite.


    Some are Called...Some are not called? why?

    I see. Election is to glory God, where as If we choose we bring glory to us.

    Many want to have the right to choose. They demand that right. Its only fair that God give them that right to choose. Yet they will not give God the right to choose who HE wants to take as His bride.

    Give God the glory. Leave Salvation in His hands. It seems to work better that way.



    In Christ...James
     
    #1 Jarthur001, Jul 15, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 15, 2006
  2. James_Newman

    James_Newman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,013
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't think that called and elect is the same thing. The called are those who believe on the Lord, but the elect are those who will reign with Christ during the kingdom.
     
  3. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,723
    Likes Received:
    0
    Choose

    Let me be the first to welcome you back James and say that I am really glad to see you posting again.

    Now after all the welcome I will approach your thread tomorrow. I have a busy day tomorrow and have to get in bed early tonight. But don't be surprised if I don't agree with you. :laugh: :laugh:

    I will give you a little hint where I will be going. God is infinite and omnipotent and knows all things at once. He saw us believe when we were in our mother's womb, wait a minute, He saw us believe before the foundation of the world. To change it around, He saw us believe at the end when He Glorifies us. He is everlasting to everlasting and without time. He is a timeless God and He saw us believe and called us, He saw us believe and called us then He predestinated to be conformed to His image, he justified us, He Glorified us. We have to wait for it is in the future for us but for God He is there now. He know our very death, He has seen us die already even though as men we have to wait but God does not. He never willed us to sin, He never willed us for righteous but gave us the choice. He saw what that choice was before we were ever born and that is why we were called etc.

    I said I would wait but guess I got carried away. peace

    We not fooling around James but getting right into it. :)
     
    #3 Brother Bob, Jul 15, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 15, 2006
  4. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes and no.

    Call does have another meaning then elect. Called means..invited. In my saying that this is the elect, maybe I should have said the context gives the meaning it is talking about the elect.

    But the point remains in both ways.....

    It is clear that there is a group that is...called
    and a group not called.

    27 tells us..that it is God that chooses to puzzle some...and have others lust for might. God calls...God Chooses.

    Just in case you may wonder...verses 28-31 tells us it is the elect.....

    28 says...says God choose the despised....
    29..to bring glory to Him...
    30...and choose them to be made wise.,,,right before God...for sanctification...and to be redeem.

    31..why? to bring glory to Him.

    Anyway you read it...the same thing is said. :)



    In Christ..James
     
  5. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    4,807
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes. The word that is translated as "elect" is "called out". In other words, those called out from among the called, and the called are from among the saved. Many are called, but few are elect. As you say, the elect are those who will be ruling and reigning with Christ in his coming Kingdom.
     
  6. saturneptune

    saturneptune
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    13,977
    Likes Received:
    0
    Welcome back James. Things will go better this time. What would you think of the idea that there are only two types of people, elect and unelect?
     
  7. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    Get to it then.. :)

    Your view as I understand it..... God, in eternity, looked down through the ages and saw who would repent and believe and those who He foresaw would repent .....and believe were elected to salvation. This view is correct in that election took place in eternity. I feel, it is wrong in that it makes the ground of election to be something in the sinner rather than something in God. Election comes not from a reaction to something man has done, But from Gods pure pleasure and love of that one.

    Eph 1:4-6 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

    Bob..This view is the most popular one with the majority of Baptists today, is open to many objections as I see it.

    ... It denies what the Bible says about man's condition by nature. The Bible does not describe the natural man as having faith.

    1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    Both repentance and faith are gifts of God, and God did not see these graces in any sinner apart from His purpose to give them.

    "Him hath God exalted with His right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins", Acts 5:13

    "When they heard these things they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, `Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life'", Acts 11:18

    "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledgement of the truth" 2Ti 2:25.

    Eph 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    1 Cor 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

    ...Election was not because of foreseen faith, but because of foreseen unbelief.

    Now read that statement very close Bob. The last time I posted that line, war war 3 started, (not with you Bob, but someone else).....but its not hard to understand what I mean.


    Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;


    .....It changes the meaning of the word "foreknowledge".

    The word as used in the Bible means more than foreknowledge about persons, it is the foreknowledge of persons. In Rom 8:29,30, the foreknown are predestined to the image of Christ, and are called, justified and glorified. In 1Pe 1:2, the word for "foreknowledge" is the same as "foreordain" in the twentieth verse of the same chapter, where the meaning cannot be "foreknowledge" about Christ. God's foreknowledge about persons is without limitations. His foreknowledge of persons is limited to those who are actually saved and glorified.

    .. It is open to the strongest objection that can be made against the Bible view.


    To a Calvinist it is often asked, "If certain men are elected and saved, then what is the use to preach to those who are not elected?"

    With this view given above..one could equal ask, "If God knows who is going to repent and believe, then why preach to those who according to His foreknowledge, will not repent and believe?" Will some repent and believe whom He foreknew would not repent and believe? If so, He foreknew a lie.

    I feel also that this is where many, yet not all mission work has gone in the wrong way. Nowadays missions is based upon sympathy for the lost and not obedience to God. This leads to.. doing somthing because the results are satisfactory to us.

    If we are faithful, God is as pleased with our efforts as when there are no results. Right?

    2 Cor 2:15-16 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: 16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

    Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

    1 Cor 3:5-6 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
     
    #7 Jarthur001, Jul 15, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 15, 2006
  8. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    Very true..In the end there are only 2 classes. Yet I found in Pauls mastering of the wording in this text, he took us from 2 groups, to 3 groups..and then back to 2 groups..but not the same 2 groups he started with. Paul is good with word play.
     
  9. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes...and the ones called out...elected...whatever word you wish to use....are..
    And those who are not called out...elected...any word you want to use...
    :)

    But the hardest for the freewillers to over come...

    some are not called..(invited) at all.

     
    #9 Jarthur001, Jul 15, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 15, 2006
  10. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,723
    Likes Received:
    0
    You state that my view as you understand is that God looked down through time but my view is that God sees everything at once. There is no ages or time with God but as He looked He saw everlasting to everlasting. As in "the elder shall server the younger" God is looking at that now and sees Jacob and Esaau and knows the elder serves the younger.

    Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
    So He is "timeless" and sees all in a moment the beginning unto the end. He never willed sin on anyone nor did He will righteous on anyone but could see or does see in a "timeless" God who "believed".
    The foundation of the world and now are no different with Him and neither is the end. We look at things in time but God is omnipresent and everywhere at once so He sees when we believe and those are who He calls, predestinates to be conformed to the image of His son, justified and Glorified.
    We have to wait until the future to be glorified but God is already there for He knows all things and already sees us Gorified.
    2 Timothy, chapter 2
    19: Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
    20: But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
    21: If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
    22: Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
    23: But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
    24: And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
    25: In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
    26: And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

    (God gave them a right to repent and they did, you have to take it in context)

    Acts, chapter 11
    18: When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
    19: Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.
    20: And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the Lord Jesus.
    21: And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord.

    (Same here He gave the Gentiles a right to repent, you have to take it in context and not just one line.)

     
    #10 Brother Bob, Jul 16, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 16, 2006
  11. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,723
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not hard at all when you realize that God is timeless and sees now, and before the foundation of the world and the end of the world "who believes that Jesus is the Christ", and calls those who "believe".
     
  12. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    0
    I understand the foreseen faith view, but I find a problem. How is it that under that view that man does not basically elect himself. Does this not place God under obligation, thus excluding grace?

    We all believe in salvation by grace. Where we find differing views is whether it's all of grace, or part grace and part something else.

    The second view is identified by the expression. "God has done his part, now you must do your part."

    Or, "Jesus has done all that he can, now it's up to you."

    What we say then is Jesus really hasn't done enough. His death on the cross did not really pay it all. It really isn't "finished." God really isn't "satisfied." The "ransom" is insufficient.

    And we make of no effect the words of John 1:13: "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
     
  13. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,723
    Likes Received:
    0
    First let me say I am glad you see the foreseen view that I posted for it is hard to understand without some study. We were all made aware of how hard it is to understand Paul by Apostle Peter.

    2 Peter, chapter 3
    15: And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
    16: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
    17: Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
    18: But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


    Because it is not the believing that "saves" it is "Grace", but God gives that Grace to those who believe or it would mean that "all" men would be saved by the Cross.
    God did His part when he created man. He never willed that man to believe or not believe. He never willed that man to sin and He never willed that man to righteous. God did will His Son to die for sin, and those who believed that Jesus is the Son of God and died for sin, would be saved by His Grace. The problem is, when did God know this? He is without time, so He always sees man believe, before the foundation of the world, now and in the end. God sees all in a moment, so He knows who to "call" because He sees who believes.
     
    #13 Brother Bob, Jul 16, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 16, 2006
  14. Terry_Herrington

    Terry_Herrington
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2002
    Messages:
    4,455
    Likes Received:
    1
    I'm just curious Jarthur001, do you ever post anything here that doesn't deal with Calvinism, because you seem obsessed with it?
     
  15. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,361
    Likes Received:
    790
    Choosing God as a result of the Holy Ghosts conviction is neither works nor is it an opportunity for glory. That is man made philosphy that cannot be backed up with scripture.

    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power F2 to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    He who has the power gets the credit!:thumbs:
     
  16. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have a love for the doctrines of Grace. I guess the best way to address this is look at my post on your own.

    Witnessing...
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=31587

    Bible Types...
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=31509

    Words of the KJV
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=810845#post810845
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=30802
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=795192#post795192

    Ipods..
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=31050


    Adobe Acrobat/PDFs
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=31296

    Rick Warren
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=807818#post807818

    OSX..Mac
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=806044#post806044

    Things we ALL agree on..
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=806044#post806044

    Greek word...
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=802391#post802391

    Separation...
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=802391#post802391

    Serious Question... Very Troubling
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=795014#post795014

    Why did NT authors (Saints) read scripture
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=794909#post794909

    Roman Catholicism
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=794022#post794022

    A Biblical Understanding of Sin
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=793313#post793313

    Are The Specifics of Modesty Given In The Scripture
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=790193#post790193

    Check this out...
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=789976#post789976

    Unruly Children....
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=789013#post789013

    Network..
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=788779#post788779

    NBA finals
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=788578#post788578

    CERM is looking for new partners
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=785259#post785259

    Willful Vs. UnWillful Sin
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=783533#post783533

    Hell created before Adam and Eve?
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=783225#post783225

    Jack Hyles "Cult" ?
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=782076#post782076

    Pro-care Worth it?
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=781807#post781807

    Where to start...
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=781799#post781799

    Cover-ups
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=781578#post781578

    All Things To All Men = Anything Goes Evangelism?
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=778086#post778086

    Do these passages prove Sola Scriptura?
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=262805#post262805

    The Da Vinci Code Addressed (A good read)
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=265482#post265482

    Job...
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=265404#post265404

    THE ENTIRE BIBLE
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=264946#post264946

    weary of life..
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=229587#post229587

    This goes back just 2 months. There are more if you want me to share with you.

    Thanks for asking.

    Now can we get back to the subject...or does anyone have anything else they want to ask me about my person?
     
  17. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bob..I'll address your post later.

    nap time.. :)
     
  18. ktn4eg

    ktn4eg
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2004
    Messages:
    3,517
    Likes Received:
    1
    Sorry, but you guys are ALL wrong!!

    There are really 10 kinds of people:

    1) Those who understand binary, and

    0) Those who don't!!! :laugh: :laugh:
     
  19. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    The sad part of this...I understand you. :(

    But one must not forget..

    1E) hexadecimal. :)
     
  20. Dale-c

    Dale-c
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,145
    Likes Received:
    0
    Welcome back James...
    Now as far as the topic, and chosen etc.

    I want to address Bobs idea of God choosing based on what He sees man doing.
    First of all, that makes God a respector of person, which God isn't.
    If God chooses only those who choose Him...
    Anyway, I hear many say that God WANTS all men to be saved.
    But not all do.
    Then you say that God sees everything. And knows everything.

    Let me ask you this? Why doesn't God change something if that is the case?
    Bob, if you set out to do something, and you have knowledge that something won't happen the way you want, before it happens, woudln't you change something to get your desired outcome?

    What you say when you say God wants all, but knows NOT all will come, then still does the same thing....seems a bit unwise does it not?

    God is all wise. All powerful.
    He knows the future because He Causes the future.
     

Share This Page

Loading...