3 Non-Calvinist challenges

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by whetstone, Apr 10, 2005.

  1. whetstone

    whetstone
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    Very often, non-Calvinists on this board bring up a verse or passage and say 'what do you think about THIS??!' and then the debate ensues. May I have a crack at it? As one who rejects TULIP, what are your interpretations of these verses? [​IMG] We'll start in Matthew today since I'm working my way through the NT again with the doctrines of grace in mind.

    ALL men? All sorts of men?

    Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

    Who inspired Peter's confession of faith?

    Mat 16:15-17 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    Total Impossibility?

    Mat 19:25,26 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

    I am beginning to realize that the doctrines of grace are on every page of the Bible in one form or another. But I turn it over to you. How do you deal with these verses?
     
  2. icthus

    icthus
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    Hey, Whetstone, why not just try to explain what John 3:16-18 means?
     
  3. whetstone

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  4. icthus

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    Right. here goes.

    If you take "world" in a limited sense to mean only the "elect" in John 3:16, then you have problem on your hands. In the following verse Jesus says: "For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved" Are you saying that "world" used in the second and third uses, only refer to the "elect" also? Then verse 18 makes no sense at all, as Jesus goes on to say: "he that believeth on Him is not condemned, but he that believeth not is condemned already..." As this verse is tied to the preceeding, it can only follow that Jesus is here saying that there are some of this "world", that is, the "elect" will be condemned as they do not believe. If this is not the case, the who does the "he" refer to? Further, in the Greek, the phrases: "should not perish" (verse 15,16) and "might be saved" (verse 17), and in the "subjunctive mood". Why is this? If you know Greek grammar, you will see that the "subjunctive mood" refers to "conditionally"; whereas the Greek would require the "indicative mood" (shall not perish/shall be saved), which asserts "absolutely", which would support the Calvinistic position. As it stands in the Greek, the "mood" shows that their "salvation" is "conditioned" on their "continuing to believe", where "believes" in verse 16 is in the present tense "continues to believe". You simply cannot escape the grammar.
     
  5. NateT

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    Just a note about Subjunctives, if I remember my elementary grammar, they indicate some sort of uncertainty from the writer's perspective. That uncertainty could be if it will happen at all, and it could also be an uncertainty of when. So saying it is a subjunctive is helpful, but does not guarentee that it means the event is conditional. It could just mean the time of its occurrence is unknown

    Secondly, I believe I heard that roughly 70% of the subjunctives in the NT act this way, and that another 30% do not. I don't know which of the 70/30 side this falls.
     
  6. whetstone

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    icthus- what does this have to do with the OP I have to ask? When I said, 'your turn' I was referring to my OP.
     
  7. icthus

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    You are partly right. Dr Green says: "The subjunctive asserts conditionally" (Handbook to the Grammar of the Greek Testament, p.55)
     
  8. icthus

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    Your trick with the old Calvinistic "ALL men? All sorts of men?", which also is used to distort the use of "world" in John 3:16
     
  9. whetstone

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    but this thread isn't about john 3:16 remember? I've exhausted that topic on my own forums with my own stubborn arminians. I'm asking about some verses in Matthew.
     
  10. icthus

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    All ties in to the same argument. You gave me the link to your site in this thread, and I took the pleasure in responding. Do you think you could deal with the Greek grammar on John 3:15-17, and answer me on verse 18 which I posted?
     
  11. whetstone

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    All ties in to the same argument. You gave me the link to your site in this thread, and I took the pleasure in responding. Do you think you could deal with the Greek grammar on John 3:15-17, and answer me on verse 18 which I posted? </font>[/QUOTE]And I will repeat what I said: This thread isn't about John 3. If you are so determined to make an issue of it, start a new thread.
     

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