3rd of 2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Ed Edwards, Dec 6, 2005.

  1. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Title: 3rd of 2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

    Prophecynut: //Some versions have "day of Christ" and others have "day of the Lord," with the latter being correct due to the context of this chapter. The Thessalonians were suffering trials and tribulations somewhat similar to what the day of the Lord would be like. Mentioned in this chapter is the man of lawlessness, opposition to God, works of Satan, counterfeit miracles, every sort of evil and wickedness. Surely this points to the Tribulation and that day of judgment and not to the day of Chirst and his glorious appearing for the Church.//

    This is phase three of our interesting discussion
    getting into the meaning of the prophecies of 1 Thessalonians 4 & 5
    and 2 Thessalonians 1 & 2.

    The old topic #1: 2 Thess 2:1-4, the Rapture is at:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/28/3350.html?

    The old topic #2: 2 Thess 2:1-4, the Rapture is at:

    Page 1:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/28/3429.html?

    page 20:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3429/20.html
     
  2. Ed Edwards

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    The Thessalonians were familiar with
    this saying of Jesus which we now find
    recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

    But he that shall endure unto
    the end, the same shall be saved.


    But some said of their friend "He got
    sick and died before Jesus came to
    get him, poor soul."

    Paul addresses this problem in
    a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
    one of the most comforting passages in the
    Bible.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

    13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
    brethren, concerning those who have fallen
    asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
    have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
    rose again, even so God will bring with Him
    those who sleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
    that we who are alive and remain until
    the coming of the Lord will by no means
    precede those who are asleep.
    16 For the Lord Himself will descend
    from heaven with a shout, with the voice
    of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
    And the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain
    shall be caught up (raptured)
    together with them in the clouds to meet
    the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
    always be with the Lord
    .
    18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
    5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
    brethren, you have no need that I should
    write to you.
    2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
    the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
    in the night.
    3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
    then sudden destruction comes upon them,
    as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
    And they shall not escape.
    4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
    so that this Day should overtake
    you as a thief.
    5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
    We are not of the night nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
    but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
    and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
    8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
    putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
    and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
    9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation through our
    Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
    we should live together with Him
    .
    11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
    one another
    , just as you also are doing.

    Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
    had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
    in a second letter:

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

    1 Now, brethren, concerning
    the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    and our gathering together to Him,
    we ask you
    ,
    2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
    either by spirit or by word or by letter,
    as if from us, as though the day of Christ
    had come
    .
    3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
    for that Day will not come unless
    the falling away comes first,
    and the man of sin
    is revealed, the son of perdition,

    The falling away that comes first
    is the Rapture!
    Then the man of sin is revealed, the
    antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
    begins.

    While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
    English versions before the KJV used a
    form of "departure" - again, the idea of
    someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation
    rapture/resurrection

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible):
    Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
    not come, except there come a departing first, and that
    that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,


    There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
    the rapture.
    Here are some things that could happen
    before the rapture but they do NOT
    have to happen.

    1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
    2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
    (the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
    Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
    Tribulation period)
    3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
    on Mount Moriah north of and alongside
    the Dome of the Rock.

    But again, these things do not HAVE
    TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
    happen after the rapture; they could happen
    before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
    HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
    rapture.
     
  3. Me4Him

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    To show you how "pre-conceived ideas" can "blind" you to the "TRUTH",

    folks don't know the difference between

    "DEPARTING" (as in rapture)

    and "ARRIVING", (as in Jesus returning).

    Departing=leaving.

    Arriving=arriving.

    And some believe "departing" is "Arriving". (post trib rapture)

    "Mercy". :eek: :D [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  4. BobRyan

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    Hopefully all can agree that 1Thess 4 is speaking of our being gathered together to Christ (raptured) at what IT CALLS The Coming of the Lord.

    Hopefully all can read that SAME statement in 2Thess 2 as BOTH of those identifiers are applied there AS WELL.

    Hopefully all can also read in 2Thess 2 that "THAT DAY WILL NOT COME until the apostacy comes" that great apostacy of the Christian church seen during the dark ages when superstition ruled in Christ's place over an apostate church.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. BobRyan

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    Given those obvious steps above - it is then clear to see that both Matt 24 and Rev 19-20 are followoing that SAME unified sequence as is put together with 1Thess 4 combined with 2Thess 2.

    ALL four are in complete agreement!

    Rev 20 shows that it is the "first resurrection" that is being described at that "coming of the Lord" when we are all gathered together to Him -- as the "Dead in Christ rise first".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. Me4Him

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    Matt 24, Jesus describe the trib, "AFTER" which is his coming.

    Rev 19, describes Jesus "Casting the "false Prophets" into the fire, this also occurs "After the trib.

    Rev 20 describes Jesus's "RETURN" TO THE EARTH, with the "FIRST RESURRECTED", this also occur "AFTER" the trib.

    1Thess 4 combined with 2Thess 2 describes Jesus "rapturing" the Church, "BEFORE" the trib.

    "EVERY FEAST" has a "corresponding" event in the "NEW TESTIMENT", your doctrine "TOTALLY OMITS" the "FEAST OF TRUMPETS". (Rapture)


    [​IMG]
     
  7. Ed Edwards

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    Tee hee [​IMG]

    Some just don't know who is coming and who
    is going.


    Rev 19:14 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And the armies which were in heauen followed
    him vpon white horses, clothed in fine linnen,
    white and cleane.

    This will be a miracle, I don't know how
    to ride a horse.

    BTW, I note if you see this assembly of
    white clothed saints on white horses, it
    will look exactly like water clouds.

    Rev 1:7 (KJV1611 Edition):
    Behold he commeth with clouds, and euery eye
    shal see him, and they also which pearced
    him: and all kinreds of the earth shall
    waile because of him: euen so. Amen.


    In the second coming, Jesus COMES with clouds;
    in the pretribulation rapture Jesus COMES
    in the clouds.

    In teh second coming, 'all kinreds of the
    earth shall waile'; in the pretribulation
    rapture we for whom the Lord comes will
    Rejocice, for our Redemption Cometh Nigh!

    [​IMG] - pretribulation rapture Graemlin,
    notice the hand ready for Jesus to grab us.

    I hope when Jesus comes to get me at the
    pretribulation rapture i'm still alive and am
    with some non-christians. As I start to rise
    i'm going to grab one in each hand.
    I'll do the short form of the Roman Road
    to Salvation. About 35,000 feet high i'll
    make the invitation to accept Jesus as
    personal Lord and Savior ending with
    "or else I let you go" [​IMG]
     
  8. Ed Edwards

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    BobRyan: //Hopefully all can also read in 2Thess 2 that
    "THAT DAY WILL NOT COME until the apostacy comes"
    that great apostacy of the Christian church seen
    during the dark ages when superstition ruled
    in Christ's place over an apostate church.//

    2Th 2:3 (Geneva Bible, 1585):
    Let no man deceiue you by any meanes:
    for that day shall not come,
    except there come a departing first,
    and that that man of sinne be disclosed,
    euen the sonne of perdition,

    The 'departing' is when the saints leave this
    world for heaven BEFORE the Tribulation.

    2Th 2:3 (KJV1611 Edition):
    Let no man deceiue you by any meanes,
    for that day shall not come,
    except there come a falling away first,
    and that man of sinne bee reuealed,
    the sonne of perdition,

    The 'falling way' is when the saints fall away from this
    world into the hands of Jesus: bound
    for heaven BEFORE the Tribulation.
     
  9. Ed Edwards

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    BobRyan: // ... it is then clear to see that both Matt 24 and Rev 19-20
    are followoing that SAME unified sequence as is put together
    with 1Thess 4 combined with 2Thess 2.//

    Amen, Brother BobRyan - you are RIGHT ON!!
    Well, not just Rev 19-20 but the whole book of Revelation:

    ---------------------------------------------
    Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

    0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
    1. rapture/resurrection event
    2. Tribulation time
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
    5. new heaven & new earth

    The time line according to Matthew 24
    (Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
    Mark 13, Luke 21):

    0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
    Matthew 24:4-15

    1. rapture/resurrection event
    Matthew 24:31-44

    2. Tribulation time
    Matthew 24:21-28

    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    Matthew 24:29-30)

    Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
    (4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
    (5. new heaven & new earth)

    The time line according to Revelation:

    0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 &lt;== you are here!
    1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
    2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
    4. literal MK=millennial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
    5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

    The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

    0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
    (implied, until the falling away)

    1. rapture/resurrection
    v.1 - gathering together unto him
    v.3 - falling away

    2. Tribulation time
    (time of the man of sin)

    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    v.8

    Not mentioned:
    (4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
    (5. new heaven & new earth)

    BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
    before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
    So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
    in error, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture
    as will 90% of Baptists and kindred Christians.
     
  10. Me4Him

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    Ya got that right. :D

    Not to worry, if ya fall off, you'll have "wings", you can just fly along with us and lead the horse. :eek: :rolleyes:

    Yep, a "CLOUD OF WITNESSES".

    That would make a person think about their "imminent death". [​IMG]

    The "WHOLE WORLD" would be saved if they could see some of the "SIGNS AND WONDERS" of God, but Jesus said he won't give any.
     
  11. BobRyan

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    The Bible outline of last day events is --

    0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!

    1. Tribulation time
    2. Second Advent of Jesus event
    3. rapture/resurrection event
    4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
    5. new heaven & new earth


    The unaltered sequence is "still"...

    The time line according to Matthew 24

    1. church age continues Matthew 24:4-15 &lt;== you are here!
    2. Tribulation time Matthew 24:21-28
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event Matthew 24:29-30)
    4. rapture/resurrection event Matthew 24:31-44, Rev 20:4-5
    5. Millennium - Rev 20:5-end

    As already pointed out -
    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3350/14.html#000201

    But there are always those whose traditions will "need" to jumble up events 1 through 3 no matter what scripture says.

    Case in point - - Ed is always compelled to do the slight of hand trick below - inserting Vs 31-55 between vs 15 and vs 21 of Matt 24 - because otherwise Matt 24 does not match up with what Ed "needs" it to say..

    And yet that sequence is not found in Matt 24 – so … he jumbles the order as “if” it did. But in so doing you are only showing the “need” to have read an order other than what scripture gave you.

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ December 07, 2005, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
  12. BobRyan

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    Originally posted by BobRyan:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3350/5.html#000063

    Postrib pre-mill outline:

    0. church age continues – you are here
    1. Tribulation time
    2. Second Advent of Jesus event (1Thess 4, Rev 19)
    2.A The FIRST resurrection (Rev 20) of the blessed and holy at Christ's appearing in Rev 19 - Is the same as the resurrection at Christ's return in 1Thess 4.
    2.B. Saints taken to heaven as promised in John 14
    3. literal millennium spent in heaven with Christ (Rev 20)
    4. Second Resurrection (Rev 20)
    5. Lake of Fire destruction of the wicked (Rev 20)
    6. new heaven & new earth (Rev 21)

    In this view the First Resurrection John sees (Rev 20) which is at Christ's Rev 19 appearing is the SAME resurrection that Paul describes at Christ's appearing in 1Thess 4. The resurrection of the righteous.

    In this view the sequence of Rev 19, 20 and 21 is literal and plain. No gimmicks!
    ________________________________________
    The question is asked as to how this fits with the future predicted in 2Thess 2:1-7 where the "man of sin" causes all to fall that do not "have a love of the truth".

    The answer is -- "perfectly".

    In Both Matt 24 and 2Thess 2 we see the same thing presented PRIOR to the return of Christ in the air to "receive us to Himself" and take us to that "place He has prepared for us" in His Father's house.
    quote:
    ________________________________________

    In Matt 24 we read this

    23 "" Then if anyone says to you, "[/b]Behold, here is the Christ[/b],' or " There He is,' do not believe him.
    24 ""For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
    25 ""Behold, I have told you in advance.
    ________________________________________
    And THEN we see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven - (as described in Matt 24 FUTURE to th writing of that Gospel).

    In the same way - before the return of Christ we ALSO see the deception that is predicted (future to Paul's day)
    quote:
    ________________________________________
    2Thess 2
    7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
    8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
    9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
    10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
    ________________________________________
    The falling away of vs 1-4 came with the fall of the Christian church into the form of the RCC, and persecution of the saints by the church during the dark ages.

    But the "Great deception" described in both 2Thess 2 and in Matt 24 that comes at the end and BEFORE the return of Christ - has yet to take place.

    So to add to the sequence above ...

    0. The Christian church continues – You are here

    1. The great apostacy of the dark ages (2Thess 2:2-4)
    2. The Seven last Plagues (Rev 16)
    3. The GREAT deception - (Matt 24, 2Thess 2)
    4. The 2nd Coming (the return of Christ APPEARING in the air) (Rev 19, 1Thess 4)
    5. The resurrection of the Righteous (John 5, Rev 20, 1Thess 4) which is the FIRST resurrection.
    6. Saints raptured up in the air to be with Christ (1Thess 4)

    7. The literal millennium - (Rev 20)
    8. The 2nd resurrection (John 5, Rev 20) of "wicked only" over whom the 2nd death DOES have power.
    9. The Lake of Fire event (Rev 20)
    10. The New heavens and New Earth (Rev 21)

    Exactly as the Bible described it - in the same order -- all literally true.

    Resurrection Counting

    Some are asking why John writing at Patmos - looking into the future -- is seeing the Rev 20 event at the Rev 19 2nd coming as the "FIRST resurrection".

    They wonder why that is the FIRST resurrection in the future for NT saints.

    They ask Why John looking into the future at "things which must shortly come to pass" did not see - "The resurrection of Christ" and also the OT saints raised in Matt 27 or the resurrection of Jarius' daughter etc.

    Yet it is actually quote obvious and clear why those PAST resurrections do not appear as THE FIRST one in the FUTURE as John looks down to the end of time.
     
  13. Ed Edwards

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    BobRyan: //But there are always those whose traditions will "need" to jumble up events 1 through 3 no matter what scripture says.

    Case in point - - Ed is always compelled to do the slight of hand trick below - inserting Vs 31-55 between vs 15 and vs 21 of Matt 24 - because otherwise Matt 24 does not match up with what Ed "needs" it to say..

    quote:Ed said

    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3504.html#000008

    0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
    Matthew 24:4-15

    1. rapture/resurrection event Matthew 24:31-44
    2. Tribulation time Matthew 24:21-28
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event Matthew 24:29-30)

    And yet that sequence is not found in Matt 24 – so … he jumbles the order as “if” it did. But in so doing you are only showing the “need” to have read an order other than what scripture gave you.//

    Cute, debating what i'm going to say next ;)
    I think it is quite a strech from "retoric device' to
    your 'slight of hand trick'. It is the Bible uses the
    'retoric device'; it is BobRyan who claims 'slight.
    I don't find it a 'slight of hand trick' when the Bible
    uses a 'retoric device' in prophetic literature.

    Hardly anybody ouside the field of English grammer
    is aware of what a 'polysyndeton' is all about.
    Yet I describe it below.

    Here is my writing on how Matthew 24 supports the
    pretribulation rapture of the church age saints
    (both Christians and Messianic Jews):
    --------------------------------------------------
    In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
    ask three questions:

    (in the order asked):
    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    3. What is the sign of the end of age?

    Jesus answers these questions in
    Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
    some parables.

    Here are the answers of Jesus in the
    order the questions were asked:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    Here is a summary of the answers
    in the order in which events will occur:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Soon, it was in 70AD

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    No signs preceeding the end of the age

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    The Sign of His coming will be the
    Tribulation period.


    Recall the Greek language in which this
    Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
    did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
    So many ands, buts, and other connectors
    give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
    (in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
    instead of an outline. This is most noticable
    in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
    I believe the major outline to be:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
    Rapture/resurrection which ends the
    current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
    last days, etc.)

    Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
    church age even up to this time.
    Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
    The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
    that the church age continues.
    ------------------------------------------

    in #2 DeafPostrib posted: //Matt. 24:13 is not talking about the future seven year tribulation period. This verse is speaking to us, that we should be faithful and be endure throughout our life, and do not give up while facing trials, tribulations, persecutions, etc. till we die or Christ comes, then we shall overcometh them as we endureth//

    Yes, as i said: //Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
    church age even up to this time.
    Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
    The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
    that the church age continues.//
     
  14. BobRyan

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    You insert the phrase "rhetoric device" has an excuse to open up the text and re-arrange it to your liking.

    But notice - you NEED the arrangement that you provide to SHOW how events will work out in your own view.

    You then deny God's Word that SAME accuracy as IT presents that SAME subject -- namely "end time sequence".

    So God's Word presents the "unwanted sequence" in Matt 24 and you "re-arrange it".

    God's Word SHOWS in Rev 16 through 20 that SAME Sequence (in fact all the way from 16 through 22) and you ignore it.

    Then in 1Thess 4 and 2Thess 2 we see the SAME sequence hammered away with the "coming of the Lord" and "our gathering together to him" being a time that "Does not come until the apostacy comes first" - that great falling away of the Christian church in the dark ages as it presided over the kingdoms of Europe -- and "again" you ignore it.

    How often can the Bible show you the same thing and yet you claim that your own ideas should be used to re-arrange scripture?

    Seems like there would be a stopping point.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. BobRyan

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    Well you have that right - and as we see in Matt 25 it comes AFTER the sign of the Son of Man in the clouds of heaven - it comes AFTER the sign of Christ's coming seen by all mankind.

    It is our "gathering together to him" as 2Thess 2 points out - and it happens "At the coming of the Lord" as 1Thess 4 AND 2Thess 2 point out - AND as Matt 24 points out.

    Impossible to miss if you don't eisegete and re-arrange the text.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. Ed Edwards

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    BobRyan: //Impossible to miss if you don't eisegete and re-arrange the text.//

    'eisegete'? not easy to find in my dictionary.

    However 'polysyndeton' is in my dicitonar, but is
    not adequately explained.

    How do you outline Chapter 24 of Matthew?
     
  17. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Scripture is from the KJV1611 Edition

    Mat 24:3 And as he sate vpon the mount of Oliues, the Disciples
    came vnto him priuately, saying,
    I Tell vs, when shall these things be?
    II And what shall be the signe of thy coming,
    III and(what shall be the signe) of the end of the world?

    I Tell vs, when shall these things be?
    Mat 24:4 And Iesus answered, and said vnto them, Take heed that no man deceiue you.
    Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ: and shall deceiue many.
    Mat 24:6 And yee shall heare of warres, and rumors of warres: See that yee be not troubled: for all these things must come to passe, but the end is not yet.
    Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdome against kingdome, and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes in diuers places.
    Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrowes.
    Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliuer you vp to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and yee shall bee hated of all nations for my names sake.
    Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
    Mat 24:11 And many false Prophets shall rise, and shall deceiue many.
    Mat 24:12 And because iniquitie shal abound, the loue of many shall waxe cold.
    Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure vnto the end, the same shall be saued.
    Mat 24:14 And this Gospell of the kingdome shall be preached in all the world, for a witnesse vnto al nations, and then shall the end come.

    II And what shall be the signe of thy coming,
    Mat 24:15 When yee therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the Prophet, stand in the holy place, (who so readeth, let him vnderstand.)
    Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Iudea, flee into the mountaines.
    Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the house top, not come downe, to take any thing out of his house:
    Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field, returne backe to take his clothes.
    Mat 24:19 And wòe vnto them that are with child, and to them that giue sucke in those dayes.
    Mat 24:20 But pray yee that your flight bee not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day:
    Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor euer shall be.
    Mat 24:22 And except those dayes should be shortned, there should no flesh be saued: but for the elects sake, those dayes shall be shortned.
    Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say vnto you, Loe, heere is Christ, or there: beleeue it not.
    Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shal shew great signes and wonders: insomuch that (if it were possible,) they shall deceiue the very elect.
    Mat 24:25 Behold, I haue told you before.
    Mat 24:26 Wherefore, if they shall say vnto you, Behold, he is in the desert, goe not foorth: Behold, he is in the secret chambers, beleeue it not.
    Mat 24:27 For as the lightening commeth out of the East, and shineth euen vnto the West: so shall also the coming of the Sonne of man be.
    Mat 24:28 For wheresoeuer the carkeise is, there will the Eagles bee gathered together.
    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those dayes, shall the Sunne be darkned, and the Moone shall not giue her light, and the starres shall fall from heauen, and the powers of the heauens shall be shaken.
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appeare the signe of the Sonne of man in heauen: and then shall all the Tribes of the earth mourne, and they shall see the Sonne of man coming in the clouds of heauen, with
    power and great glory.

    III and(what shall be the signe) of the end of the world?

    Mat 24:31 And hee shall send his Angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his Elect from the foure windes, from one end of heauen to the other.
    Mat 24:32 Now learne a parable of the figtree: when his branch is yet tender, and putteth foorth leaues, yee know that Summer is nigh:
    Mat 24:33 So likewise yee, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is neere, euen at the doores.
    Mat 24:34 Uerely I say vnto you, this generation shall not passe, till all these things be fulfilled.
    Mat 24:35 Heauen and earth shall passe away, but my wordes shall not passe away.
    Mat 24:36 But of that day and houre knoweth no man, no, not the Angels of heauen, but my Father onely.
    Mat 24:37 But as the dayes of Noe were, so shall also the comming of the Sonne of man be.
    Mat 24:38 For as in the dayes that were before the Flood, they were eating, and drinking, marrying, and giuing in mariage, vntill the day that Noe entred into the Arke,
    Mat 24:39 And knew not vntill the Flood came, and tooke them all away: so shall also the comming of the Sonne of man be.
    Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field, the one shalbe taken, and the other left.
    Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill: the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    Mat 24:42 Watch therfore, for ye know not what houre your Lord doth come.
    Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the good man of the house had knowen in what watch the thiefe would come, he would haue watched, and would not haue suffered his house to be broken vp.
    Mat 24:44 Therefore be yee also ready: for in such an houre as you thinke not, the sonne of man commeth.
     
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    BobRyan: //0. church age continues – you are here
    1. Tribulation time
    2. Second Advent of Jesus event (1Thess 4, Rev 19)
    2.A The FIRST resurrection (Rev 20) of the blessed and holy at Christ's appearing in Rev 19 - Is the same as the resurrection at Christ's return in 1Thess 4.
    2.B. Saints taken to heaven as promised in John 14
    3. literal millennium spent in heaven with Christ (Rev 20)//

    Quite imposible.

    3. The Millennial Messanic Kingdom will be lilteral.
    But it will be a physical reign on a real Earth from
    a real throne of David in a real Jerusalem - all
    predicted in the Bible.

    Event 2 cannot be after the Tribulation and as
    predicted. Once the Tribulation Starts, it's course
    is timed and predicted by the Bible. (When it starts
    is NOT predected by the Bible, no man can know it)
    Daniel 9 especially 27 speaks of a 7-year week and
    two 3½-year half-weeks. The Antichrist will in
    the middle of the week commit the AOD = abomination of
    desolation, The Antichrist will broker a treaty for
    the safety of Jerusalem - two different events.
    7-years after the peace treaty and 3½-years after
    the AOD then the Second Coming will come RIGH ON
    SCHEDULE. By contrast, the pretribulation coming
    of Jesus to take His church to heaven is UNPREDICTABLE
    by any past event.

    Mat 24:36 (KJV1611 Edition):
    But of that day and houre knoweth no man, no, not
    the Angels of heauen, but my Father onely.

    Your 'simple' timeline violates this scripture.

    1Th 4:16-18 (KJV1611 Edition):
    For the Lord himselfe shall descend from heauen with a shout,
    with the voyce of the Archangel, and with the trumpe
    of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
    17 Then we which are aliue, and remaine, shalbe caught
    vp together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord
    in the aire: and so shall wee euer bee with the Lord.
    18 Wherefore, comfort one an other with these words.


    I don't see how this can be much comfort if it happens
    after the Great Tribulation; it is comforting only before the
    Great Tribulation (we are talking 3/4 of humanity getting
    killed, not a few million here and there).

    1Th 5:2-3 (KJV1611 Edition):
    For your selues knowe perfectly that the day of the Lord
    so commeth as a thiefe in the night.
    3 For when they shal say, Peace and safety: then sudden
    destructio commeth vpon them, as trauaile vpon a woman
    with childe, and they shall not escape.


    Your 'simple' timeline violates this scripture.
     
  19. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Amen, Brother Me4Him - you are RIGHT ON [​IMG]

    Amen, Brother Me4Him - tell it like it is going to be! [​IMG]
     
  20. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Ed,

    Can you find a verse in Matthew 24 saying that Christ shall come before tribulation?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     

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