4-Point Calvinists and Limited Atonement

Being what most would call a four-pointer and reading just the first part of this article, I think James White missed the boat. Every four pointer of my stripe believes strongly in the sovereignty of God and fully affirms the 4 points (contrary to White's assertion). However, we do not believe that an infinite atonement can be limited in regards to its sufficiency. It is that simple. Perhaps there are other four pointers out there who would differ but I find myself unaddressed by what I read here of White. I do not know any four pointers of the species that he talks about.

 

So the idea in 4 point Calvinism is that God - after going through all the effort to die for and provide payment for all the sins of all people - then fails to "flip on the light" for those people so that they can accept that costly gift - given in such great effort and pain?

I admit - it solves the problem of 1John 2 - that of needlessly restricting the basic universal theme of salvation to 'just elect Jews". But it seems to have other problems.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I've never understood 4 point Calvinism because it seems 'deceptive' that Jesus died for you but you can't be saved (in the case of many people, so it would seem).

And I'm sure God is not 'deceptive'.



AITB

 

Ken,

Perhaps he is referring to people I don't know about. There may be some who used LA as a basis for rejecting other things that they don't like. I just don't know them.

Bob,

What are you talking about with reference to the elect Jews?? The elect are not just Jews. There are some to be sure but they are elect from every nation. The issue in limited atonement is whether or not Christ's death accomplished something (propitiation) or whether it simply made it possible. We believe that Christ's death accomplished it and no more merit is required.

AITB,

The issue with most four pointers that I know about is the limited of sufficiency. Jesus' death was sufficient for all the sins of every man for all time. It was not intended for them. We can preach to all that Christ died for them because in a sense he did. His atonement gives them every day of their lives, every breath that they take, etc. This is common grace that is rooted in the atonement.

 

Pastor Larry,

I don't understand how this statement of yours contradicts particular redemption in any way. Can you explain?

 

I don't think it does. That is why I don't mind that people call me a 5 pointer. However, some think that I am not a five pointer becuase I believe that Christ's atonement was unlimited in its sufficiency and merit. I can say that Christ died for the sins of the world without any problem. Not all can say that.

 

Okay. I understand.

According to their definition I guess wouldn't be a 5 pointer either. But then I just say they've got their definition wrong.......

 

[quote} Pastor Larry
What are you talking about with reference to the elect Jews?? The elect are not just Jews. There are some to be sure but they are elect from every nation. The issue in limited atonement is whether or not Christ's death accomplished something (propitiation) or whether it simply made it possible. We believe that Christ's death accomplished it and no more merit is required.
[/quote]

The "elect Jews" is a restriction often imposed on the text of 1 John as a way to defend Calvinism.

In 1John 2 we find "He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not OURS only but for those of the whole World".

Some have tried to force the 2nd person of 1John so that it only refers to elect Jews and then make "the whole World" refer only to elect Gentiles.

But it has been shown that to do so limits the Gospel itself to just Jews -- "IF we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins" 1John 1:9.

It is a "restriction" that the text does not demand - it only comes up as a "need" for the model of Calvinism to avoid having the "Atoning sacrifice" actually be applicable for "The Whole World".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Having recently preached through 1 John and using most of the major sources (articles and commentaries), I did not see one person even reference this position. It is not a position that is supported by many apparently.

The our/whole world distinction is better understood by john and his readers vs. those not in his intended readership.

 

Many 5 pointers have suggested I am not a calvinist because of the distinction I mention. Sad ... but true.

 

Ken and Larry - obviously you have run across different brands of 5 pointer Calvinistic guys then I have. I can tell by what Ken posts

total inability - total depravity
There's a slight difference - but essentially I would have no problem with either

unconditional election
This makes no sense to me - I believe there are the elect - but that they have been set aside - picked and elected for a specific purpose. I also believe that there are "Free "Will"" Christians out there

Limited Atonement -
Larry states:
Jesus' death was sufficient for all the sins of every man for all time. It was not intended for them. We can preach to all that Christ died for them because in a sense he did. His atonement gives them every day of their lives, every breath that they take, etc. This is common grace that is rooted in the atonement.

I still REALLY have a problem with that - despite the fact that is a "liberalish" interpretation of Limited Atonement. God intended only a few people to be saved but he desires that none perish - and that all be saved - I know you'll argue its all that He intended - but thats just not it. Justice demands everyone pays the price for sin; but then we throw Mercy into the equation, but we limit it, to only a few - God's Mercy and Justice are equally absolute

Irresistible grace - Effectual calling
there's a major difference here - in removing grace and placing calling in its place

God showed grace in the freeing of the Israelites from Egypt - but many were not grateful
God showed grace in the times of the judges but Israel fell away
God shows us grace in the area of spiritual gifts, and many turn away

Some are called to be apostles-prophets-teachers - where are these leaders? Where are those called to be in support roles. For as surely as someone will disagree with this post - God has ordained roles that would benefit His kingdom for every person - and in His love He permits to choose to serve in the way that He would have us do. I see so little effectual calling that I would again remove the elect from being the entirety of the Christian body, to a subgroup. In fact the more I think about it - perhaps elect isnt a good word for those saved in that predestined manner

preservation of the saints - perserverance of the saints

Hoooo boy if you cant tell the difference - between those - well lets just say there's a difference and I much rather go with the first then the second

Total Depravity/Inability - I agree no prob
Unconditional Election - Nope
Limited Atonement - Nope, prefer Larry's lib over con
Irrestible Grace/Effectual Calling - Nope
Perserverance/Preservation of the saints - Yes in regards to eternal security

Thought I was 3.5 guess Im only 2.5

BTW Ken were yer "remixes" of the standard TULIP acronym part of this other acronym that I've heard of, but dont recall actually coming across

 

Well, then they are also eliminating many others who historically claimed to be 5 pointers along with you, including the authors of the Canons of Dordt:

[ September 02, 2002, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

I don't understand how the atonement gives people those things. I thought creation by God gave them life and breath.

What does the atonement add to that, for those who after this life, will be eternally condemned?

Could you clarify, for me?

AITB

 

Well, for one thing, if God wasn't going to redeem a people from among the fallen race, wouldn't He have just destroyed the earth and everything in it right after the fall? Christ's death gave a temporary reprieve from God's wrath for everyone, and even the reprobate owe their existance to Christ's atoning work.

 

Originally posted by russell55:

Well, for one thing, if God wasn't going to redeem a people from among the fallen race, wouldn't He have just destroyed the earth and everything in it right after the fall?

Why though? God has all eternity to punish people. So how can you know that he would have destroyed the earth right after the fall? It's hard enough to know what His purposes are in the world we do live in, I find, let alone, trying to guess at what He would have done in a different world...

Christ's death gave a temporary reprieve from God's wrath for everyone, and even the reprobate owe their existance to Christ's atoning work.

I'm not seeing how you logically get to this.

I still don't see how people owe their life in this world to the atonement rather than creation.

AITB

 

Well I think that Romans 3:25 tells us that a propitiation had to be set in motion in order for God to hold off on punishment of sin.