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4 Views on God's Foreknowledge - Omniscience

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Faith alone, Sep 13, 2006.

  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: They lack no ability, just the opportunity of hearing the message of hope and a will to obey the gospel.
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Ok so you don't mean necesarey "Abilities" you mean "opportunity to hear the gospel" -- correct?

    your argument is that while God is indeed "convicting the world of sin and righteousness and judgment" and while Christ IS the Light that "coming into the world - enlightens every man" and while He is "drawing ALL mankind to himself" and while he does stand at the door and knock so that "IF ANYONE hears and opens HE WILL come in" this is all insufficient to actually "save" without those who are drawn, enlightened, invited -- to also hear the Gospel?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    If so -- then may I suggest a close review of Romans 10.

    Rom 10
    8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
    9 that [b]if you confess[/b] with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
    10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and [b]with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. [/b]

    11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES[/b] IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

    12 For there is [b]no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all[/b], abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
    13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED[/b]."
    14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
    15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS[/b] OF GOOD THINGS!"
    16 However, they did not all heed the good news[/b]; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
    17 [b]So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

    18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;[/b]
    "THEIR
    VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
    AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."

    [/quote]


     
  4. hillclimber1

    hillclimber1 Active Member
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    2 - Simple Foreknowledge - This view says that God has a complete and unfallible knowledge about the past, present and the future as well. The other two views (excluding open theism) agree with them here. But regarding God's sovereignty and God's predestination/pre-detemination of certain events, they say that God does not really "predetermine" them but simply knows what men will choose to do and hence can in a sense "predestine" it since it will come to pass. Middle knowledge and the Augustinian-Calvinistic viewpoints disagree, sayin that God is fully sovereign and predetermines/predestinates what will happen. The simple foreknowledge viewpoint argues that man has a free will, and hence God cannot predetermine what he does or else his will would not be truly free.

    I agree with this except " hence can in a sense "predestine" it since it will come to pass". This infers action on God's part, which is inaccurate.

    The whole Angelic conflict is a matter of God saying, "We'll make man a free agent, able to choose right from wrong and see what happens. He must have free choice unfettered.
     
  5. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: No, it is not insufficient to save, but that is not the entire means God uses to save men. Men have the natural abilities to respond, and God has indeed enlightened them in some measure as to right and wrong an the existence of God, but God has not enlightened all men as to the gospel. God has reserved that process as one that is carried out by the often meager efforts of man preaching the Word. The plan of salvation has been laid and finished, the conscience of men have been enlightened at least in a degree to the need. All that is yet needed is but for the gospel to go forth by the preaching of the Word, without which men will not be saved. God’s chosen means of bringing actual light of the ‘gospel message’ is by the preaching of the Word accomplished by those who have already been obedient to the gospel message. Ro 10:14” How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?”

    We as believers are the light of the world, and the salt of the earth. God has commissioned US to spread the good news. If we fail, He indeed will raise others up to carry out His tasks, but just the same it will not be accomplished apart from the efforts of men as co-workers together with God. That is God’s chosen method of bringing His salvation message to men and making it available to them.

    The bottom line is that the message must be shared to be received. God has done His part. Will we be found faithful in doing the part He has ordained for us to carry out?
     
  6. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: This is what I feel as well. I see both systems of thought supporting determinism by the fact that they both evidently see God as the Cause. I am at a loss to see what good all the explanations about middle knowledge does us if in fact the end result is precisely the same, i.e., God as the cause. It appears to me that one is indeed Augustinian/Calvinistic and the other is Calvinistic/Augustinian.

    It reminds me of a basketball game in which men sit around and argue whether of not it is proper to dribble the ball five times or six times before shooting a basket without consideration that the end is what is important, not the amount of times the ball is dribbled. In considering foreknowledge, it is not how many world God foreknows are within the realm of possibility, but who in fact is the cause of the moral intents of men. If God is the Cause, man cannot be held accountable, and to consider punishing them for something caused by God Himself or any force outside themselves so powerful and coercive that they could not have done anything other than what they did under the very same set of circumstances, is absurd.

    God is indeed Sovereign, but that does not equate to God as the cause of all moral intents. God, in His Sovereignty, made provision for man to be the author and creator of his moral intents. God can indeed cause men to do anything He so desires, but does not praise or blame them if in fact He is the direct cause of their actions.
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Although God's perfect future knowledge enables Him to "know" what Christ will do in the future - it does not remove Christ's free will - and it does not mean that God is not "also" active in events in Christ's life enabling that future outcome without actually forcing the will of Christ to "do" something.

    The same is true in all cases of sinful man - hence God is fully just in blaming those who refuse salvation "How I WANTED to save your children BUT YOU WOULD not" Matt 23.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    What is your opinion of the "good news" preached in Rom 10?? The Gospel in some form?


    So your argument is that for many "they have never heard -- have they?"

    God’s chosen means of bringing actual light of the ‘gospel message’ is by the preaching of the Word accomplished by those who have already been obedient to the gospel message. Ro 10:14” How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?”

    We as believers are the light of the world, and the salt of the earth. God has commissioned US to spread the good news. If we fail, He indeed will raise others up to carry out His tasks, but just the same it will not be accomplished apart from the efforts of men as co-workers together with God.[/quote]

    So then are you saying that in all cases all do get someone sent to them - if we do not go -- then someone else? Or are you saying "many have not heard and will not hear because there is no one going to them and how can they call on him whom they have not believed?"

    Is that your point?

    What is the point in Rom 10:15-18? Is it "surely they can not believe because in many cases no one has gone out to them"??

    15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS[/b] OF GOOD THINGS!"
    16 However,
    they did not all heed the good news[/b]; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
    17 [b]So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

    18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;[/b]
    "THEIR
    VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
    AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."




    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. Faith alone

    Faith alone New Member

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    Good discussion here...

    HP: If God is the Cause, it is a given that He chose……but if He is the Cause, we are not free. You cannot entertain the notion that God is the Cause and yet somehow we choose without entertaining an absurdity. If no other option exists but the one that God chooses, and that by God choosing such it comes to pass, free will is a chimera. We, as part of the redeemed, would be necessitated by the Cause that caused us.

    On the other hand, if God chose us, NOT in the sense of ‘being the cause,’ but simply by foreknowing that we, if granted the opportunity, would respond in obedience to the offer in light of the conditions He set forth, of our own free will, the will can indeed be free as Scripture and reason and experience attest.

    FA: The assumption that if God were the cause we are not free is thinking from a human point of view, IMO. For example, there is the question about Christ's pecaability. (I hold to an impeccability - Christ could not have sinned.) Now just because it was not possible for Christ to NOt sin because that would mean He were not God, that does not mean that the temptation was not real. That is the kind of pointI'm trying to make. The choices are very real to the person making them.

    James 1:13
    [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]No one undergoing a trial should say, "I am being tempted by God." For God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself tempts no one.

    FA

    [/FONT]
     
  10. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: I indeed left myself wide open for questions with the way I stated it. I stand to be corrected. Thank you for drawing my attention to the matter. May I change what I said to better reflect my sentiments? I should have said God ‘can’ indeed raise others up if He sees fit to fulfill what we fail to fulfill. God will only do what He deems is wise from His infinite perspective. I cannot know that but through a finite glass and even then darkly.

    I do not believe that all have heard or will hear the gospel message. How God will deal with them is up to God. I would only say, will not the God of Heaven do right and just? So in answer to your question I would have to agree with the last part of your quote in that many have not heard “of the gospel’ and will not hear because no one is going to tell them, and how can they call on him in whom they have not heard or believed.


    The scripture you mention specifically in Ro 10:18 is indeed a verse that one could say shows that salvation has been granted to all, but I for one do not believe that verse, even though I would agree that the context just previous is speaking of the gospel, is not directly in verse 18 referring to the gospel message itself being heard by every living man, women, and child. “ But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.” I see this verse in the same light as what I believe Adam Clarke presents, in that the direct gospel message may in fact of not been heard by all, but that in Palestine both Jews and Gentiles and throughout the whole Roman Empire, had at least heard a sound or a word that if they desired to believe and follow those tidings they could if they would.

    I am one, that does not take this literally in the sense that everyman on the face of the planet had that kind of knowledge as to the gospel. I cannot believe for a minute that any missionary ever reaching some of the far out places they have gone would believe that the gospel had reached every remote village, until a missionary, radio, or some form of the gospel message had been communicated clearly to them by human instrumentation. I know there are a few stories of God leading some out of the jungle by a bright light etc, but that would be seen as the unordinary, not the usual occurrence.

    Scripture directs us to be obedient to spreading the gospel. I cannot for a minute feel that if we do not do our part it will still all of necessity be accomplished some other way. If that was true, I can see no emanate reason to feel compelled to act if in fact if we don’t do it someone else will. If we fail, God indeed can and may often send someone else to fulfill His command to share the gospel, but nothing forces God’s hand to do so. I am sure God is doing all He wisely can to save the lost. He loves and died for them all.
     
  11. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: We would have some clear disagreements concerning Christ. There can be no virtue or vice apart from choice, choice to form an intent as something other than what one does under the very same set of circumstances. If Christ could not have sinned, he could not have been tempted, and especially not as Scriptures clearly state, “in ALL points as we are, yet without sin.” This needs to be addressed under a topic by itself.
    The though of being tempted MUST include the possibility of contrary choice. If contrary choice is not possible temptation is impossible to conceive of. If there is no possibility of contrary choice, there is no choice. No choice, no temptation.

    Here again there is a principle involved, without which no thought of freedom can be entertained. If there is only one possible consequent for a given antecedent, no choice or freedom can be entertained. Freedom and choice can only exist where there is more than one possible consequent for a given antecedent. To deny this is to enter the realm of absurdity where words have no intended meaning or concepts. Freedom and necessity are at antipodes with each other, and never the twain shall coexist.



    HP: As a man He was in fact tempted. “Mt 4:1 ¶ Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.” Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
     
  12. Faith alone

    Faith alone New Member

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    HP,

    But James 1 clearly says that Christ could not have been tempted so as to sin. "God cannot be tempted with evil." The context is that of those who say that they are being tempted by God. Clearly Jesus experienced the temptation by Satan, but He could not be tempted in the sense of giving in to sin.

    In Hebrews we are told that Jesus "shared" with us in becoming flesh.

    I don't want to turn this thread into one on peccability/impeccability - just trying to make a point. I suppose if we do not agree here though we won't regarding free will either. But it does need to be addressed in a topic by itself. It will be difficult for eitehr side to be conclusive though, since no scripture specifically addresses this topic. James 1:13 is the closest.

    The points you are making below assume that no choice is possible if God has fore-ordained what will happen. But God's Word does not say that. There is a choice. It is completely free for the individual from my perspective. I know you do not agree with that - do not consider it logically possible, but it is important for you to accept that this is the perspective of those who hold to either the Augustinian system or the Mk system.

    FA
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    #1. It is clear that the context in Romans 10 is salvation since the salvation process "believing and confessing resulting in salvation" is explicitly the context.

    #2. The argument is explicitly in Romans 10 addressing "Those who have not heard". And explicitly covers all the world not just palestine.

    #3. The argument also is consistent with your admission that obviously all mankind has not had a full gospel presentation given to them.

    What is Paul quoting in Romans 10?

    It is a key part of exegeting the text.

    And I would argue that it IS CRITICAL that we take this chapter literally as "true".

    Agreed no "bright light message" mentioned in Rom 10 -- but something ELSE IS - and it is said not only to be the :"good news" but also to go into all the world.

    So what is Paul quoting - what is the context?

    Scripture never says "Go spread the Gospel because there is only so much that God can or will do and if you don't go God can not reach the world". The Gospel commission was never based on "what God can not or will not do".

    A lot of people miss that key point.

    We are supposed to go at God's direction - but NOT because we think God "can't do this or won't do it".

    So back to Romans 10 - why is Paul so confident that this "good news" has gone out to the whole earth - what is he quoting?

    Romans 10
    15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS[/b] OF GOOD THINGS!"
    16 However,
    they did not all heed the good news[/b]; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
    17 [b]So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

    18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;[/b]
    "THEIR
    VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH,
    AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD." (Ps 19)


    The full text quoted in vs 18 above is as follows
    Psalms 19

    1 the heavens are telling of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of his hands.
    2 day to day pours forth speech, and night to night reveals knowledge.
    3 there is no speech, nor are there words; their voice is not heard.
    4 their line has gone out through all the earth, and their utterances to the end of the world. In them he has placed a tent for the sun,
    5 which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber; it rejoices as a strong man to run his course.
    6 its rising is from one end of the heavens, and its circuit to the other end of them; and there is nothing hidden from its heat.



    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #53 BobRyan, Sep 17, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 17, 2006
  14. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Should we try to interpret this verse within the context you so clearly point out? If so, in the case of temptations concerning Christ, should we say that this verse simply implies that Christ was not, neither could be, tempted by God?
     
  15. Faith alone

    Faith alone New Member

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    What the text says is that God (Christ) cannot be tempted with doing evil. That does not mean however that when Jesus took on flesh that He could not experience the same things that we do, for Hebrews says that He did... it simply means that since He is God it was not possible for Him to give in to them since IOT be able to do so He could not be God.

    Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tested (tempted) in every way as we are, yet without sin.

    Hebrews 2:17, 18 Therefore He had to be like His brothers in every way, so that He could become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For since He Himself was tested (tempted) and has suffered, He is able to help those who are tested (tempted).

    The reason He cannot be tempted so as to possibly sin is because He is isolated from sin. Since He is completely separated from sin, He cannot tempt others (to sin) nor can He be tempted to sin. Robertson's Word Pictures has...
    Again, my purpose is to point out that just because Christ, or God the Father, could not sin does not mean that He could not feel temptation and it does not mean that God does not make choices. Similarly people do have choices just the same, though God has sovereignly predetermined what will happen in this world. We are not like puppets - that is not how He chose to work. He has left some things outside His "desires" obviously... He does not desire birth defects or rape or murder, etc.. But since He allowed mankind a free will, He is working things out in that context.

    Hebrews 2:8b, 9 For in subjecting everything to him, He left nothing not subject to him. As it is, we do not yet see everything subjected to him. But we do see Jesus-- made lower than the angels for a short time so that by God's grace He might taste death for everyone--crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death.

    FA
     
    #55 Faith alone, Sep 18, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2006
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    God can not be tempted - Scripture says Christ was tempted
    God does not get hungry - scripture says Christ was hungry
    God does not get thirsty - Scrpture says Christ was thirsty
    God is all powerful - Scripture says Christ fell under the weight of the cross
    God does not get tired - Christ was exhausted and slept sometimes every day!

    You can not go to the work of God the Son where he EMPTIED HIMSELF being found in the form of a man to the point that HE HIMSELF says "I can of my own self do NOTHING" and there INSERT the invincible God qualities for him - and still have scripture hold without contradiction.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: I believe you are correct in your assumption. Christ had to empty Himself of his powers as Diety to become like as we are.

    God is Omniscient. Jesus said it was not for Him to know some things, but the Father only.

    FA is heading down a mighty tough path on this one.
     
  18. Faith alone

    Faith alone New Member

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    Jesus never forsook any of His attributes, or else He would have not been God. He did choose to not exercise them all the time while here on earth in the flesh.

    Robertson's WP:


    In Philippians 2:7 the only "emptying" in point is that of the external change from the "form of God" to the "form of a servant." He emptied Himself of the glory due God. He was not in a form such that humans would see Him and say, "Ah, there is God."

    Some say that the specific attribute He gave up was His omniscience. But Jesus'
    omniscience is an essential attribute to being God, and it is an essential attribute of the Son of God, Who became flesh. So any limitation of Christ's human knowledge misunderstands the essence of the incarnation.

    Now to say that Jesus "emptied Himself" cannot mean that Christ divested Himself of His divine attributes, but only that He veiled them and voluntarily laid aside the use of some of those attributes when He took on the form of humanity. They were still His and He still possessed them fully. If Jesus is God the Son, then He must be immutable (unchangeable) and eternal, so hence He could never cease to be God - even for a moment. That is the essence of being God.

    Deity cannot stop being deity or He would never have been truly God in the first place. Jesus Christ is both undiminished deity and genuine humanity united in one person. I am not saying that this is an easy concept to grab onto. It is of course very difficult for our finite human minds to grasp this concept.

    And the church has debated the finer points of this concept. But if Jesus gave up any of the attributes of God, He was never God. As I see it, anything view which denies this is walking on very dangerous ground!

    FA
     
  19. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    FA: voluntarily laid aside the use of some of those attributes when He took on the form of humanity.

    HP: I can agree with that. That is exactly what He did, and subsequent to laying those attributes aside, and accepting who He was by faith, He was not in possession of those attributes as was the Father, except as I see it, by faith.

    He was indeed God and He was man. Just the same, when Jesus turns to us and says that it is not for Him to know, I take Him at His Word that omniscience in an absolute sense, was one of those attributes he voluntarily laid aside temporarily while on this earth in the form of man.

    What attributes do you say He laid aside?
     
  20. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    He said "Father Glorify me again as I was when I was with you".

    Oh, how we struggle with Jesus being God and also Flesh. One day we shall know it all but it is not given unto us now to reall decipher just exactly how it was. That is why I kept asking did God die when Jesus died and never got an answer.
     
    #60 Brother Bob, Sep 18, 2006
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