1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

4 Views on God's Foreknowledge - Omniscience

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Faith alone, Sep 13, 2006.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I agree that foreknowledge does not leave blame with God - (Sort of like when we predict that removing the Ten Commandments and Prayer from schools will result in more violence in schools -- does not make us the authors of the violence).

    But given a free will universe - If God simply obliterates the first being to "step out of line" the entire Universe will then be "fear based".

    A free will universe would need something like an audit to prove that in spite of "Hell" God "IS LOVE". Hence the 6000 year experiment.

    Just as we see in Job 1 and 2.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0



    HP: Who would disagree with that? Sure there are other wills affecting our will. Even the habits and actions of others indeed have an influence on our will. You seem to make no distinction between an influence upon the will, and a cause forcing or coercing the will. My position is that if there is something outside or apart from the will that sustains to the will the relationship of a ‘cause’, the will is not and cannot be free, and no morality can be predicate of the intents and actions directly affected by that cause.

    You have repeatedly stated that God is indeed the Cause, not simply an influence, of man’s choices. If that is the case, God is to be blamed for any moral failures period, for as you say, He is the cause of them.

    I say in any moral decision, where man is to be blamed or praised, God cannot be the cause, but rather only an influence upon the will of man. Mans’ will itself creates and is the one responsible for any and all of his moral intents.



    HP: It would be crazy if that is what I believed, but it is so far removed from the truth that your statement is completely unreasonable. I have done nothing but clearly establish man as the cause of his moral intents. It is you that claims God is the cause, not me. By believing as you do, you destroy freewill and all morality.





    HP: Scriptures affirm man’s mortal responsibility from cover to cover. A book could be written with the references supporting moral accountability. If there was not a single Scripture at all to affirm it, conscience would still cry out the truth concerning man's moral responsibility to God and their fellowman. I have tried to explain the basis for morality and the need for nothing outside of the will to sustain to the will the relationship of a cause in order to be blamed or praised. It simply is not that difficult of a concept to recognize and accept.

    I have never said that because outside influences influence the will that they force the will. Do you not understand the difference between an influence and a cause? I simply stated that nothing other than the will itself can be the cause for the decision, but an untold numbers of things can indeed place an influence upon the will. The point is that when the influence upon the will comes to the place of overpowering the will and ‘causing’ or determining the outcome of the wills intents, the will has became forced or coerced, and as such has left the realm of morality and has became the product of necessity not freedom. In such a case it is the outside cause that is to be blamed or praised, and not the individual themselves.
     
    #82 Heavenly Pilgrim, Sep 30, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 30, 2006
  3. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bobby Ryan, and any others on the list,

    Do you understand the point I am making to FA? Am I being clear to you? How could it be expressed in other terms clearer? Any questions as to my presentation? Thanks.
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    If you are both arguing for the Arminian view it appears that you are both saying "in any moral decision, where man is to be blamed or praised, God cannot be the cause, but rather only an influence upon the will of man. Mans’ will itself creates and is the one responsible for any and all of his moral intents. " Such that no action of God is resulting in the sinner choosing to be wicked because "God made Him do it". God does not tempt and is not the source of wicked actions. NEITHER does He LEAVE the wicked to act so that they may blame Him in the form "I was not allowed any viable option but to sin".

    If you toss a dead bird off a cliff and say "fly if you can" - you have no "blame" to hand to the dead bird for falling onto someone's head at the bottom of the cliff. They are fully justified in blaming you - not the dead bird.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0


    HP: I like that illustration, and I know you did not assess any 'moral guilt,' but I do want to make something clear. The problem I see is that the person at the bottom may indeed blame you in a sense, but just as the illustration is written there is no ‘moral’ blame that can be necessarily assessed, and no moral punishment necessarily inflicted.

    Now lets make the illustration moral. The man at the top of the cliff has a large rock. He knows that one he desires killed is going to pass beneath the cliff. He waits patiently until the right moment when his intended victim passes beneath him. He throws the rock over the cliff, striking the man in the head and fatally injures him.

    Here is another possible ‘moral’ scenario. The man at the top of the cliff waits patiently poised to throw the rock over the cliff to kill one he hates as he passes by below. Just as he sees the man about to passes beneath him, he reaches for the rock to throw it upon the man, but at that very moment, and before the man can throw the rock over the cliff, a bolt of lightening strikes the man at the top dead. I say he is as guilty morally for the sin of murder as he would have been if he would have succeeded in his intended action.

    Morality involves a chosen intent of the heart of selfishness as opposed to benevolence, without which no moral guilt or subsequent moral punishments can be justly be assessed. The simple act of throwing a dead bird off a cliff in no way induces moral guilt an in no wise automatically is deserving of moral punishment.
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Indeed as a man thinketh in is heart - so is he.

    In 2Cor 10:4 we are told to "take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ" for the weapons of our warfare are divinely powerful for the tearing down of strongholds.

    Still - I would not charge that every thought of temptation shows our character fully embracing that idea. Often the thought is rejected and we use those "weapons" to reject the sinful nature's demands.
     
  7. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0


    HP: Excellent!

    Now, are those ‘thoughts of temptations’ sin, or are they influences to sin? Does sin occur, according to James, at the point of temptation or a thought, or is sin conceived at the point of forming an intent in the will to act in accordance to those desires, lusts, or thoughts?

    When is guilt or judgment imposed upon the individual? At the point of temptation or the formation of an intent to act in accordance to the temptation?
     
  8. Faith alone

    Faith alone New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Messages:
    727
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bob,

    And the MK position (and mine) is not that "God made him do it." That's what seems to be getting misunderstood here as well. I understand HP's frustration for I am experiencing it as well. I believe I have made this very clear. My position is not that "God makes people do things." We do whatever of our own free will and choice. But God does predestine. He does so without impinging on our free will. That is possible. If you think not, then my position is that you are thinking as a human being. We are humans. God is not. We should not impose human limitations upon Him.

    We have been talking more from the perspective of logic... human logic mainly. We should focus more on God's Word...

    Psalm 102:20-28 So I said: "Do not take me away, O my God, in the midst of my days; your years go on through all generations. In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them and they will be discarded. But you remain the same, and your years will never end. The children of your servants will live in your presence; their descendants will be established before you."

    Yes, what we do in this life will make a difference. Yes we determine our own fates. But God ultimately sees the end from the beginning and oversees all that transpires. He is sovereign.

    Proverbs 8:22-31 "The Lord brought me [wisdom] forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind.

    God applied wisdom in all that He did from the beginning. The assumption is that He did all that He did and is doing through wisdom. Ity permeates all that He has done. That could not be so if He was not ultimately sovereign and predestinating.

    Isaiah 46:9-11 Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.

    Here we see that God is sovereign. he does determine what will happen and He has purposed what will be and no one can thwart that. He summons birds and people equally. Does He force that bird to fly somewhere? I say "no." That bird was not aware how he was accomplishing God's will. The same is true of the man spoken of above to fulfill His purpose.

    Isaiah 41:2-6 Who has stirred up one from the east, calling him in righteousness to his service? He hands nations over to him and subdues kings before him. He turns them to dust with his sword, to windblown chaff with his bow. He pursues them and moves on unscathed, by a path his feet have not traveled before. Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the Lord--with the first of them and with the last--I am he. The islands have seen it and fear; the ends of the earth tremble. They approach and come forward; each helps the other and says to his brother, "Be strong!"

    God calls forth the generations from the beginning.

    Isaiah 40:18, 21-26 To whom, then, will you compare God? What image will you compare him to?

    Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood since the earth was founded? He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. He brings princes to naught and reduces the rulers of this world to nothing. No sooner are they planted, no sooner are they sown, no sooner do they take root in the ground, than he blows on them and they wither, and a whirlwind sweeps them away like chaff. "To whom will you compare me? Or who is my equal?" says the Holy One. Lift your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these? He who brings out the starry host one by one, and calls them each by name. Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing.

    Just as God sovereignly maintains the stars in the heavens, so He is sovereign over all of His creation.

    Ecclesiastes 3:11-15 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end. I know that there is nothing better for men than to be happy and do good while they live. That everyone may eat and drink, and find satisfaction in all his toil--this is the gift of God. I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that men will revere him. Whatever is has already been, and what will be has been before; and God will call the past to account.

    Whatever God does will endure forever. God is not passively sitting back. Many who do not know the Lord will say that this is what He is doing. But we know better. God is drawing people to Himself.

    Election does not mean that God merely knew who would believe and on that basis chose them. If we are alone those who choose our destiny, then God's election or "choosing" of us has nothing to do with it. God would not be choosing us; rather, we would be choosing him and He would simply know about it.

    But the Bible is consistent in displaying that God is the one doing the choosing, not us alone.

    This will need to be continued...

    FA
     
    #88 Faith alone, Oct 4, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2006
  9. Faith alone

    Faith alone New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Messages:
    727
    Likes Received:
    0
    continued...

    There is nothing we can do or say which would please God (Romans 3:10ff), yet we can choose to seek truth, and if so God will illuminate us further.

    This process of election as it works itself out in our own lives does not violate our will. It does not mean "divine coercion." God does not bully us into a recognition that Jesus is our Savior so that we will rely upon Him. Rather, He compels us as a man woos a woman to be his bride. He strives to persuade us. But he does so in response to our seeking truth.

    I am not trying to seek some balance or compromise between God's sovereignty and human free will. Nowhere do we read in the Bible that God is not sovereign over our wills. And scripture is also clear that we are not only responsible for what we do with Christ, but we have a free will to choose or not to choose.

    Now I am not taking a Reformed position here. It may sound like it to our Arminian brothers. But God's grace is not irresistable. He does not regenerate us first so that we are able to respond to His call. We can respond. We do choose. I think that we can draw an analogy to God's inspiration of scripture and the human will in the process...

    2 Peter 1:20, 21 Above all, you do well if you recognize this: no prophecy of Scripture ever comes about by the prophet's own imagination, for no prophecy was ever borne of human impulse; rather, men carried along by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

    So the prophet's own words and thoughts are written down and we thus have the Word. Yet God sovereignly determined precisely what would be written. Some speak in folksie style, some more formally. Some are difficult to comprehend and others more straightforward... Consider what Peter wrote about Paul's writings:
    2 Peter 3:15, 16 Also, regard the patience of our Lord as an opportunity for salvation, just as our dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you. He speaks about these things in all his letters, in which there are some matters that are hard to understand. The untaught and unstable twist them to their own destruction, as they also do with the rest of the Scriptures.

    Each Bible author wrote the very words which God sovereignly determined he would write. Yet we see each one's personality and will in the process. The message originated with God - yes. Yet the process involved the human will. In the process of inspiration God did not violate anyone’s personality or free will. Yet what was written was precisely what God wanted to communicate.

    Similarly, God does choose - He predestines. Yet our wills are not coerced or violated. We exercise free wills. I imagine that each of us recognizes our free will as we make choices. Let us not ignore God's sovereignty. Both are clear from scripture... they cannot be denied.

    FWIW,

    FA
     
    #89 Faith alone, Oct 4, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2006
  10. Faith alone

    Faith alone New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Messages:
    727
    Likes Received:
    0
    So then, let's talk scripture. You show me from scripture than God sovereignly predestines what will be, and man's will is not involved, and I will go along with you. If you show me from scripture that man has a free will and that God does not predestine, but only foreknows, and I'll submit to your logic.

    But I maintain that neither can be done. And you'll need to address the scriptures I listed.

    FA
     
  11. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    FA, let me ask you a question. Did God predestinate things that have happened in the past, and if so...when?

    Do the prefix 'fore' and 'pre' apply to God, to man or do they apply to time?
     
  12. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0


    HP: It seems like some have taken a vacation. Would you mind sharing your ideas on this issue? Thanks.
     
  13. Faith alone

    Faith alone New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Messages:
    727
    Likes Received:
    0
    Webdog,

    I apologize, but as I said earlier, and when I started this thread, my job does not permit me to do much Mon - Fri.

    God does predestinate what happens in the past. God predestined that Pharaoh would resist letting the chidlren of Israel go. God predestiend that the older would serve the younger (Jacob and Esau). It would be easier to ask when has God NOT predestined what has happened. But the Bible is full of stuff on this, and I do not want to inundate this thread with it. I assume you're aware of this as well.

    As I said earlier, scripture is clear that God is sovereign and predestines. It is also clear that man has a free will and is held accountable by God. So whatever approach we take on this issue, it needs to at least attempt to deal with those points. To just emphatically state the one and ignore the other won't help.

    I was challenged regarding the election of God, so I shared a few scriptrues and thoughts on that. If I had been challenged regarding the free will of man, I could easily have done the same, for there is so much said in scripture on it.

    I gave the example of inspiration of scripture as an good example of God working in this manner. In Peter's 2nd letter we see both the human author's input in inspiration and also the sovereignty of God in the matter. I think it is a good illustration of the balance needed here, so I'm going to re-post it since no one commented on it at the time:

    Now being "carried along" does not mean that you have no choice in the matter nor does it mean that God forced these authors to write down their prophecies when they did not want to do so.

    So as HP asked, what are your thoughts on this?

    Thx,

    FA
     
  14. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0


    HP: Just as a matter of clarification, is everything that has happened in the past a result of His predestination? Is predestination referring to the notion that God alone is the ‘cause,’ or is predestination simply setting forth the notion that indeed He ‘foreknows the cause and the effect,’ even though someone or something other than Himself is the cause, and is going to use it in some way to accomplish an end He has designed?
     
  15. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    I believe God to be omnitemporal. You cannot be truly omnipresent without being omnitemporal.

    Now what I was getting at is the fact that to us...who are bound by time...there is past, present and future. There is the prefix "fore" and "pre". How can God have these attached to Him? There is nothing "pre" or "fore" with God. These can only be phrases used by beings held within time. When we say that God predestines and foreknows, or rather when His Word states these things...it's for us...man...to get a glimpse of God's sovereignty. God doesn't "pre" or "fore" anything, He is the great I AM. God is not bound by time, therefore, being omnitemporal, He exists in the past, present and future all at once. Any act of predestination and foreknowledge has to fit within this. If God only exists in the "now", we could have an argument that God predetermined everyone's fate. We could even argue that God looked down the corridors of time to know the end from the beginning that way. Unfortunately, if God exists in that state, the "now" only, He is not truly omnipresent...meaning He couldn't be God.
     
  16. Faith alone

    Faith alone New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Messages:
    727
    Likes Received:
    0
    Predestination means that God sovereignly pre-determines what will happen.

    Hebrews 2:7, 8 You made him lower than the angels for a short time; You crowned him with glory and honor and subjected everything under his feet. For in subjecting everything to him, He left nothing not subject to him. As it is, we do not yet see everything subjected to him.

    This last phrase makes it clear that while God predestines, He does not control everything that happens such that it happens as He wills. That should be obvious else explain the murders and other carnage that occurs because of the sinfulness of man.

    Yet God is able to predetermine who will trust in Him - the elect. And He is able to work all things for our good as well - that of the elect. That's where a deeper view of God's knowledge comes into play. Some say that God cannot give man a free will and still be sovereign, while others say that God cannot be sovereign and choose those who will trust in Him and man still have a free will.

    God can predetermine what He desires without violating our free will. That does not include every single detail as He has chosen to work through us. But every single person who comes to faith in Christ was chosen, not just foreknown, before this world was even created.

    FA
     
  17. Faith alone

    Faith alone New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Messages:
    727
    Likes Received:
    0
    Very interesting.

    And what does that say about God's knowledge, omniscience, and His sovereignty-election?

    FA
     
  18. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    Quite a bit. His omniscience aligns itself perfectly with His omnipresenece / omnitemporalness. I think of it like this: can you have omniscience without omnipresence? Man cannot be omnipresent, hence man cannot be omniscient. Now if man could be everywhere at once, we would know everything at once. I don't believe God can be omniscient without being omnipresent / omnitemporal. This is ultimate sovereignty, and those who come to Christ and those who don't fit within this scope. I don't think that we can ever truly understande predestination, foreknowledge, etc. as we cannot understand things outside of time which is only a measurement that God has created for man. This is why I not only denounce calvinism, but arminianism. Both need the "God exists only in the now" element to work. The Bible is clear about free will, and the Bible is clear about God's sovereignty. Within time, these don't coincide, but remove the time element, and it starts to make a little more sense.
     
    #98 webdog, Oct 9, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 9, 2006
  19. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    9,295
    Likes Received:
    0


    HP: It becomes evident, according to you, that no one has a freewill in determining their eternal fate. You delegate freewill to evil acts alone that have no bearing or import concerning ones eternal fate period. Freewill to you has about as much bearing and import on ones eternity as the sniff test, the feel test, or the sight test has on determining how good ones cellular network is. It simply doesn’t matter.
     
    #99 Heavenly Pilgrim, Oct 9, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 9, 2006
  20. Faith alone

    Faith alone New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Messages:
    727
    Likes Received:
    0
    Such a conclusion is not at all evident to me... I do not think you are paying attention to what I have said again and again in this thread, or else you are just refusing to accept it.

    Sorry, but you know that is not the position I have taken. It is true that God predetermines who will be saved. That cannot be denied, IMO, since many scriptures speak of it. But it is also true that He does so in a manner that does not violate the person's free will. The issue is that you claim that is not possible to do so, while I claim it is possible - that there is no conflict.

    You have not commented on my earlier assertions that since God is so completely omniscient, that He could not act without detailed recognition of the implications of every act He takes. God knows who will trust in Him as result of His actions and who will not.

    For example. Say I am told that there are some people stranded in the icy extremes somewhere. Say I can only save some of them. Now I determine that whoever goes to such-n-such cabin I will be able to get to them and save them. Let's say I could also send a helicoptor to another location to pick up individuals there. But I cannot do both in time to get them all before the extremes of the weather does them in. Then by the knowledge that I have when I choose to go to the cabin to pick up the people ther, I have chosen to save them and allow the others to perish. Now by doing so have I violated the free will choice of individuals to either go to the cabin or to instead head to the meadows? (I know, not a very good illustration!) Of course not. The ydetermine their destiny as well as I do. Let's say I could also take some sort of action such that it would cause certain individuals to go to the cabin but certain others to go to the meadow instead. By taking or not taking that action, I have predetermined who will be saved.

    What you are saying is that I cannot make such a choice of whom to save without violating their free will. But the example I have just given shows that such a conclusion is not warranted. I choose who will be saved and they have a free will as well. Take the Poseidon Adventure, for example. The people there could either believe the guy who told them that they needed to go to the bottom of the boat, or they could believe the captain who said to stay put - that the rescuers would expect them to be there.

    You see, you are saying that God only knows who will trust in Him, but every action that God takes has consequences regarding who will come to Christ and who will not. How can they not? And He knows the consequences in detail. How can He not? My approach is simply to assume that God has much greater knowledge of past, present and future events, thoughts, etc. than He is understood to have from a human perspective.

    That is why I have said that you are having God think like a human being instead of like the Almighty God.

    FA
     
Loading...