5 Questions for Arminians

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by whetstone, Mar 24, 2005.

  1. whetstone

    whetstone
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    I would like each Arminian that reads these five questions to answer them. I believe the answers will be more telling than the questions. (and bear with me if you've heard similar comments) :D

    #1- If God elected to pass over fallen angels in offering Christ's salvation, would He be 'unloving' to pass over electing a human?

    #2- Since we may all agree that there will be a definite number of believers at the last judgement with Christ, I must ask if this number was as definite on the cross as it will be on that Day?

    #3- If election is based on foreseen faith, can any that God doesn't forsee be saved?

    #4- If Christ took all of mankind's punishment for sin on the cross, whose sins are the people in hell being punished for?

    #5- If believers are told that we do not know how to pray without the intercession and enabling of the Holy Spirit, why do unbelievers have this ability?

    I await the answers.

    Daniel Allen
    spurgeon.us
     
  2. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Whetstone;
    No. The fallen angles already had eternal life they didn't need saving to begin with, even though they already had it they lost it because of there choice to follow Satan.
    You're wrong there was no definit number at the cross. Christ died for the sins of the world. That is the what He died for. and He died for those sins that we might be saved.
    Election isn't about faith but Salvation. If it was about faith then God would be a respecter of men by His selective process.
    Men are in hell for there rejection of Christ.
    There is only one thing necessary for Salvation "FAITH" can a man have Faith with out prayer Yes He can. How ever it's his faith that causes man to seek Grace at the throne of Grace we are saved by Grace through faith.

    Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  3. whetstone

    whetstone
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    I hope the other arminians can see that this poster has done a poor job at understanding/answering my questions. will someone else be able to step up with more adequate answers?

    In Christ,

    Daniel Allen
    spurgeon.us
     
  4. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    I am not Arminian, merely Christian, but here are my answers to your questions.

    What makes you think that God did pass over fallen angels? As I understand the scriptures, he has simply put them in a place where they cannot interfere with man. Besides they are in a different league than humans.

    My bible says that there will be '0' nul, nada, NOT ONE believer in the last judgement! John 3:18a.

    What makes you think that election is based on foreseen faith? What scripture specifically says that? What is your definition of Election?

    What makes you think that anyone is in hell? What specific Scripture tells you that?

    Someone is misleading the believers into thinking that they cannot pray without the aid of the Holy Spirit. You see, God is: Father, Son, AND Holy Spirit! If you are praying to God, you are praying to ALL three in one! When you are having a conversation with your biological father, do you need your mother to help you?
     
  5. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Whetstone;
    You make a demeaning statement like this and then sign that you are in Christ!!!!!!!!!. Where, is you LOVE for your brothers. I answerd each and everyone of your questions. If my answers were poor maybe it's because the questions were poorer.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  6. icthus

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    Hi Its not the case of not understanding your questions, but that fact that you, like most calvinists, do not understand what the Bible teaches on the Election and Atonement!

    Your questions are meant to show that calvinism has the answers, and we on the opposite side don't have a clue about what Scripture teaches.

    The problem with Calvinism is, that it is a warped system that supposes to be based upon the Scriptures, when in fact that they are no more than theological assumptions.

    Do you people ever understand the Bible when it says things like, "unless you believe, you will persih", and, "he that does not believe, that wrath of God abides on him". Do you not understand, that it is the rejection of Jesus Christ as the only Saviour of mankind, is basically a rejection of Gods "plan" of Salvation? Time, and time again the Bible states that if we did not believe, that is, to accept God's Redemptive plan, then we are placing ourselves at odds with God, and therefore reject the offer of eternal life.

    You Calvinists believe that the gospel offer is to be made to everyone without exception. But, what is this offer? is it, to tell some the Christ died for them, and that He did not for the rest? Does not Scripture teach that if one does not believe that he would be lost? The offer of Salvation consists of the fact that Jesus Christ has paid the price for the sins of the whole world, and that it is up to the individual to respond to the offer of Salvation, and therefore be saved from eternal damnation. How can God make the offer of the gospel to everyone, and yet not provide in the atonement for all? This is saying that God is guilty of deceiving!

    Please do get your facts right, and stop playing games by listing all these clever questions which avoid the truth as taught in the Holy Bible!
     
  7. whetstone

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    Mike (iluvlight) wrote:

    "You make a demeaning statement like this and then sign that you are in Christ!!!!!!!!!. Where, is you LOVE for your brothers. I answerd each and everyone of your questions. If my answers were poor maybe it's because the questions were poorer."

    Stating something like 'this poster did a poor job at answering my questions' isn't demeaning or unloving to you. I think you read into my comment just a bit. I find it interesting that the anti-Calvinist responses thus far have actually been rather demeaning and unloving. I must reiterate that all I've done thus far is ask questions and post once stating that said questions haven't been answered adequately. I will now briefly demonstrate why some of the answers given are problematic for the anti-Calvinist position.

    #1- If God elected to pass over fallen angels in offering Christ's salvation, would He be 'unloving' to pass over electing a human?

    A. (iluvlight) No. The fallen angles already had eternal life they didn't need saving to begin with, even though they already had it they lost it because of there choice to follow Satan.

    This logic is baffling. Humans had eternal life before they sinned too. The fall of the angelic race is identical to the fall of the human race. To deny the parallel is to deny scripture.

    A. (wes outwest) What makes you think that God did pass over fallen angels? As I understand the scriptures, he has simply put them in a place where they cannot interfere with man. Besides they are in a different league than humans.

    This is an evasive answer. It is clear from scripture that EVERY fallen angel will go to hell and is never once offered the redemption through Christ's blood. You cannot look this question in the face because the answer flies in the face of your dogma.

    #2- Since we may all agree that there will be a definite number of believers at the last judgement with Christ, I must ask if this number was as definite on the cross as it will be on that Day?

    A. (iluvlight) You're wrong there was no definit number at the cross. Christ died for the sins of the world. That is the what He died for. and He died for those sins that we might be saved.

    Not only did you fail to comprehend my question, you also accused me of making a statement when I was merely asking a question. So Christ only died to potentially save? I suggest you read 2 Tim. 2:11.

    A. (wes outwest) My bible says that there will be '0' nul, nada, NOT ONE believer in the last judgement! John 3:18a.

    Perhaps you are reading the TNIV or something? Matthew 25:41-46 says that God has some on his left and some on his right hand at the last judgement. The saints and sinners are divided right down the middle by their savior and there is a definite number. John 3:18 refers to who will be condemned, not who will be where on the judgement day. You conveniently avoided answering my question.

    #3- If election is based on foreseen faith, can any that God doesn't forsee be saved?

    A. (iluvlight) Election isn't about faith but Salvation. If it was about faith then God would be a respecter of men by His selective process.

    Correct. You realize the error of the Arminian view of election. Why are you an Arminian? Election can only be unconditional or God respects persons.

    A. (wes outwest) What makes you think that election is based on foreseen faith? What scripture specifically says that? What is your definition of Election?[/i]

    Answering a question with more questions proves that you have no answer to my question. The Arminian position is that election is conditional on forseen faith. You are right- what scripture can this be based upon? You ask my definition of election? 'Chosen in him before the foundation of the world.' That is my definition. You did not answer my question.

    #4- If Christ took all of mankind's punishment for sin on the cross, whose sins are the people in hell being punished for?

    A. (iluvlight) Men are in hell for there rejection of Christ.

    Ultimately men are in hell for their sins. While rejecting Christ is a sin to be condemned for, not all men have heard of Christ to reject him. They have rejected Christ's light through general revelation so in that manner, they have rejected Christ. But you have not answered my question. If Christ paid for everyone's sins- why would anyone go to hell?

    A. (wes outwest) What makes you think that anyone is in hell? What specific Scripture tells you that?

    Again- you answer my question with more questions. I did not ask for questions. I asked for answers. If you do not believe in hell, then you are less than the standard Arminian (for even THEY believe in hellfire). I refer you to the Matthew 25 passage I gave earlier.

    #5- If believers are told that we do not know how to pray without the intercession and enabling of the Holy Spirit, why do unbelievers have this ability?

    A. (iluvlight) There is only one thing necessary for Salvation "FAITH" can a man have Faith with out prayer Yes He can. How ever it's his faith that causes man to seek Grace at the throne of Grace we are saved by Grace through faith. Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    The Bible says that 'no man seeks God.' I fail to see how anyone can have faith on their own. Please real Phil. 1:29. Your answer misunderstands and misappropriates our own belief.

    A. (wes outwest) Someone is misleading the believers into thinking that they cannot pray without the aid of the Holy Spirit. You see, God is: Father, Son, AND Holy Spirit! If you are praying to God, you are praying to ALL three in one! When you are having a conversation with your biological father, do you need your mother to help you?

    You have some sort of skewed polytheistic slant on the Trinity. The Bible is clear that the Holy Spirit is the one that makes intercession for us to the father. Yes, the Holy Spirit is God, but as far as actions of each person in the Trinity, there are differing functions. Your answer shows a misunderstanding of the question.

    I hope the Arminians reading will begin to grasp that the reason I have posted this thread is not to seek answers- but to show that the Arminian system cannot supply the Biblical answers to these questions. The Calvinistic system can. I await further answers.

    In Christ,

    Daniel Allen
    www.pre-evangelism.com
     
  8. Wes Outwest

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    This is an evasive answer. It is clear from scripture that EVERY fallen angel will go to hell and is never once offered the redemption through Christ's blood. You cannot look this question in the face because the answer flies in the face of your dogma.</font>[/QUOTE]You say it is clear in scripture, please provide the references that make it clear.

    Perhaps you are reading the TNIV or something? Matthew 25:41-46 says that God has some on his left and some on his right hand at the last judgement. The saints and sinners are divided right down the middle by their savior and there is a definite number. John 3:18 refers to who will be condemned, not who will be where on the judgement day. You conveniently avoided answering my question.</font>[/QUOTE]A Little context ALWAYS HELPS your understanding, so Here is the Context of the scripture that YOU MISUSE!
    You not only blatantly misuse scripture but you also misquote the scriptures to suit your purpose, a typical CALVINIST practice. And by the way 2 Timothy 2:11 does not support YOUR point Daniel. but here is what John 3:18 actually says in several versions:
    Which version do you place your trust in? I've probably got it too!

    Answering a question with more questions proves that you have no answer to my question. The Arminian position is that election is conditional on forseen faith. You are right- what scripture can this be based upon? You ask my definition of election? 'Chosen in him before the foundation of the world.' That is my definition. You did not answer my question.</font>[/QUOTE]Answering a question with a question proves nothing of the sort! I may have been asking for clarification! Take the following for example:
    Chosen in whom? Since you have NO scriptural support for your question, how would you like me to answer? I have plenty of examples of whom the bible identifies as "The Elect of God". But you see you are asking questions for which you do not know the answer, so you will never know if I've answered or not.

    Again- you answer my question with more questions. I did not ask for questions. I asked for answers. If you do not believe in hell, then you are less than the standard Arminian (for even THEY believe in hellfire). I refer you to the Matthew 25 passage I gave earlier.</font>[/QUOTE]First, you provided no scripture references in your previous posts on this topic.
    Who said that I do not believe in Hell? None but you Daniel the false accuser.
    You don't like my response to your unsupported question, so you denigrate me, great way to keep a conversation civil.

    You have some sort of skewed polytheistic slant on the Trinity. The Bible is clear that the Holy Spirit is the one that makes intercession for us to the father. Yes, the Holy Spirit is God, but as far as actions of each person in the Trinity, there are differing functions. Your answer shows a misunderstanding of the question.</font>[/QUOTE]No Daniel, I understood the question very. Polytheistic? Meaning multiple Gods? You'd better ask God about that, He says He knows of No other God. Besides, how do you get polytheism out of my response? Can you prove to me that I am wrong in how I see God?

    Then you're dumber than your questions Daniel. You have failed to prove the Calvinistic system has any merit what ever. Furthermore you have Denigrated the triune Godhead. You have proved nothing but your own Calvinistic bias.
     
  9. onecoolcanuk

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    Here's a question I'd like an answer to: How do you Calvinists live with yourselves when you offer an insincere Gospel from an insincere God?

    I believe in a sincere Gospel from a sincere God who says that ANY who believe in Him will have eternal life. How could you love a God who just may hate you. You as a Calvinist can not know for sure if you are saved because maybe you weren't elected. How do I know this? Because Calvinists say that nobody can come to God unless they are elect but Christ Himself says He will tell many to depart from Him for He never knew them. He will not have to tell them that if they didn't mistakenly believe that they were saved. So in all reality, you have no idea if you are saved or not.

    Also, God IS love. He is not WRATH. Wrath is a part of His character but LOVE is who He is. Therefore He loves everyone.

    Calvinism is nothing but an insincere and demonic "theological" system and the people who believe in it, though maybe saved, are deceived. I still count them my brothers and sisters in the Lord. My question is, do they do the same with regards to me. By the way, I'm not an Arminian either. [​IMG]

    sorry this got long
     
  10. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Whetstone;
    No I didn't I read it just as you meant it as if my answers weren't good enough for you. Isn't that what you meant? For instance; I answered your question with a simple no with an explanation.
    You are just being the typical Calvinist who feels they are absolutely right and every one who disagrees with them is wrong and poorly educated. You asked above; Would God be unloving and I answered no. How is that poor?
    "This logic is baffling." Yes it is to most men it is shear foolishness. That's the way it is with the foolishness of God, and what most men think of it.
    As far as denying your parallel. We have no idea of what rules the angles had to live by. They are completely different creatures some having a face on all sides of there heads some have six pairs of wings. Strange creatures to say the least, in comparison to man. The rules of heaven, just aren't discussed much. The Bible is all we know and it's written mostly about God, and man's relationship to Him. You come here and claim that the covenant God and man has together is the same for angles. How can you make such an assumption, and on what scripture?
    Evasive to what, you or scripture?
    I failed to understand what you failed to relate. Not to nit pick because I make mistakes all the time. Hey we're not perfect.
    2 Tim. 2:11

    This was a statement;
    You assume we may agree;

    This is the question.

    Your coma should have been a period after the word "Christ". There are two thoughts here one questions and the other is a statement.

    It should have read;
    Since we may all agree, that there will be a definite number of believers at the last judgment with Christ.

    A thought with in a thought is always in parentheses. Your question afterwards poses a different thought about the same subject. This was not all one thought.
    Why do you call me Arminian?
    You really shouldn't presume that you know. It'll only place you into a bad situation. I am anti- Calvinist because Calvinism is a false. Since Arminianism came out of Calvinism how can one expect good fruit to come from a rotten tree?

    You said I was correct. Thankyou!!!! I also realize the error of Calvinism's view of it as well.
    I see election as unconditional because election is universal and doesn't insure Salvation. Calvinist see it as unconditional and then places conditions on it by saying we are either chosen because of faith (this is one view) or we are chosen randomly to keep God from appearing as a respecter of men. The first makes Him a respecter and the second leaves Salvation up to chance, not God.
    May not have heard but already know.
    The sins of men isn't forgiven by the atonement of Christ, unless they repent and have faith in Christ. Yes they do pay for them there. We have to be covered by the righteousness of Christ in order for the atonement to take effect. However man winds up in hell because he rejects God. He rejects God because all men know there is a God it is written on there hearts. Just as the Law is written there. Romans 1:18-20.If man doesn't seek what's already in his heart it isn't God's fault.
    Romans 3 10-18 has not been proven to be the moral condition of men. Nothing there suggest that man cannot seek God, Nor that this is his morality. The entire passage is what the Salvation less think of those who have Salvation which is not so and really is a very poor support for "Total Depravity". By reading in to it what is not there we have the beginnings of Calvinism.
    It does not take faith to seek the truth. Faith comes by hearing the word of God trust is that faith in action and it is we who must first trust Christ.
    Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
    Do you deny all three are one?
    The Holy Spirit can't intercede for us if we don't have Him and we can't have Him until we have Grace and Grace comes only through faith.
    Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  11. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    Hoosierdaddy,
    Do you truly believe that God is love?
     
  12. onecoolcanuk

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    Wes, yes.

    Wes, do you truly believe that God is an evil monster who lies throughout His Word and offers an insincere Gospel to the people He favours yet He is no respector of persons.

    Thanks for ignoring everything else I said as well. I can assume I was right then?

    Wes, do you truly believe that you are even saved? That evil Calvinist "god" could just be lying to you...after all He lied throughout the Bible (if Calvinism is true).

    Wes, do you truly believe that when God said He desires that none perish that He "truly" meant it? Or was He just being insincere? Thanks.
     
  13. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Wes;
    God is Love the Bible says so;
    1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
    You Believe it don't you?
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  14. Wes Outwest

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    Well then, IF GOD IS LOVE, LOVE most assuredly is GOD!

    I Agree that GOD's love for us motivates him to "shed his grace on thee". But I do not agree that God is LOVE, because we know that Love is an attribute of the one possessing it! But true ESSENCE of God is Spirit, Jesus says so, when he says that God is spirit, and those who worship must worship in spirit and truth!

    My God is not love. My God is Spirit who just happens to love! Who also just happens to show favor to his created man, who also just happens to extend mercy toward us mere mortals.
     
  15. here now

    here now
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    How can one even debate with one who CLEARLY DOES NOT believe what the Bible (GOD) says?
     
  16. Hardsheller

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    You're right, It is an impossibility.
     
  17. here now

    here now
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    On one hand it's a waste of time BUT,on the other, who knows when God will give eyes to see and ears to hear. But until then(if indeed it ever happens)it's pretty fruitless.
     
  18. Wes Outwest

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    Well let's see, you say that I do not believe what the bible says, and you couldn't be farther from the truth! I have a different understanding of what the bible says than you do because I do not take the bible DEAD SET LITERALLY! I Accept the word of God the way the Holy Spirit illuminates it to me!

    You literalists baffle me completely. You take one scripture out of its setting and make it the whole word of God. Why can't you think for yourselves? God gave you the ability and told you to use what He gave you, but you refuse to do so, trusting what other men have to say about a particular scripture, thinking yourselves not capable of learning and knowing for yourself. That is no better than putting your treasure in the hands of a thief! It robs you of the light of Scripture. Wake up and smell the coffee folks...and stop falsely accusing the bretheren!
     
  19. Wes Outwest

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    Yes, here now, I pray that for you, that you will open your eyes and see the truth that's been presented to you over and over, which you stubbornly refuse to evaluate!
     
  20. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Wes;
    Up until now I have tried to see through some of what you were saying giving you the benifit of doubt, but this is a denial of God's plain teaching from His word. It's as plain as the nose on your face. If God is unlimited why do you attempt to make it seem like you keep Him in a box under your bed?
    Just as your assumption of parts Bible not being the inspired word of God this is just plainly not truth.
    God isn't limited in anything and especially in what He consist of. He is Spiritual and He is Love. God is what His Word says. He is Spirit and He is Love and what ever else He wants to be God is limitless. Don't you know that.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     

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