7-11 vs. Modern

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Joshua Rhodes, Jun 16, 2003.

  1. Joshua Rhodes

    Joshua Rhodes
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    OK... how do you distinguish between what some of you refer to as "7-11" songs and modern worship songs that just repeat too many choruses? Doesn't that depend on the makeup of your worshippers? Attending OneDay in 2000 (unable to make it this year) was a life changing experience... with only two hymns (that i can remember) in the whole mix. Are we saying that just because its new, its not any good?
     
  2. ScottEmerson

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    Personally, there are some songs that go over and over and over again. As a worship leader, however, I also have to be sensitive to the fact that the Spirit may be moving and I must continue the song.

    The vast, vast majority of praise and worship music are NOT 7-11 songs. This is a characterization made by those who do not know enough about the Christian worship music that is out there. Only a infintesimal number of songs would fall under the 7-11 category.

    (And One Day was awesome! I didn't go, but I have the DVD!)
     
  3. Joshua Rhodes

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    Come on, ya'll! I was hoping to hear from the experts... no takers?
     
  4. Pete

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    I think the "7-11" phrase is © Dr Bob ;)

    My 2¢ on the topic:

    I do not take "7" to mean that every song has to be an exposition on 4 major doctrines written by a team of Th.D.s.

    Take Handel's Hallelujah Chorus from Messiah: Hallelujah, for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth, the kingdom of this world is become the Kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever, King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

    Or for a modern example, Geoff Bullock's Blessing Honour: Blessing, honour, glory to the Lamb, Holy, righteous, worthy is the Lamb. Death could not hold Him down, for He is risen, seated upon the throne, He is the Lamb of God.

    The Hallelujah Chorus has 26 different words, Blessing Honour has 24, and both are great examples of how to write a song [​IMG] No I am not going to count how many different words Isaac Watts or Charles Wesley used in their songs, but they knew how to do it too [​IMG]

    The problem comes with the endless streams of songs that resulted from a voyage through the valley of the vague...I call them "I Love My Cat" songs. I forget where I originally posted this, so here it is again. An example of an "I Love My Cat" song: "In the middle of the darkest nights, I hear you calling me, asking me to let you in, I open my door, and your soft warm presence comes to dwell with me...Though of course you know this song is for you, I think for once I should mention you too...Soooo... Here kitty-kitty-kitty... Here kitty-kitty-kitty..." The style sound familiar? [​IMG]

    "11"..All together now..."This is the song that never ends, It just goes on and on my friends, Some people started singing it not knowing what it was, And they’ll continue singing it forever just because, This is the song that never ends...."

    Example that comes to mind: Shout To The Lord is probably one of the better new songs, it has more words than 7 anyway ;) The first time I heard it at a Church it was well on the way to hitting the "11" part...it was done at least (no exaggeration) 7 or 8 times. While I was still at that Church it was hardly out of the playlist.

    Not at all, here are some Hillsongs I think can match it with the best of older songs: Holy One Of God, Jesus You Gave It All, In The Silence, Lord Of All, Lord Of The Heavens, Glory. Funnily enough, I have not had chance to play any of these at Church..go figure [​IMG] If I did play them at Church I'ld put guitar down after second time through and ask for something else ;)

    Pete
     
  5. Joshua Rhodes

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    Cool Pete...

    So you lead worship at your church? I wonder how different your services are from mine, being separated by an ocean or two. But praise God, He's the same! Check out the Favorite Song Survey again Pete, I wrote to you there also.

    See you around the boards.

    Joshua
     
  6. JonathanDT

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    It depends on two things.

    1. The makeup of the song, it's quality of words and whether there is vain repetion - I'd say this matters for about 20% of the final judgment whether it is "7-11."

    2. Who is doing the judging. Are they traditionalists who can't stand anything other then hymns that are at least 50 years old? Well then they'll judge virtually all praise and worship song as 7-11. Are they people who totally love the P&W songs? Well then they'll rarely judge a song as 7-11 because they realize that often it is not the song that is the problem but the people leading the worship. I would say that this makes up 80% of the final judgment on whether a song is "7-11."

    You'll see stuff like the overly exaggerated "I love my Cat" argument, but that's really just grasping for straws. I can guarantee that the people who are singing the songs know exactly who they are singing to. What does it matter if some clueless person picked up the words and didn't know who they are about? And believe me, it would take a very clueless person not to know. Well, clueless or ignorant.

    If you look into this enough, you'll see the other popular criticism of P&W, which is the lack of "doctrinal depth" that the P&W songs have(cleverly disguised in this 7 words notion). Another weak argument. These songs aren't being sung so the people can learn the intricacies of Calvinism. Their purpose is simple: to praise and worship God in a way that everyone can easily participate in with everything they are, and yes, even enjoy doing it. By the way, the hymns also don't teach much about doctrine. Tell me what doctrinal truth you've learned from singing A Mighty Fortress is Our God? Yeah, didn't think so.

    Oops, hope I didn't go to far OT. God bless,
    `JD
     
  7. DanielFive

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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Brilliant, thanks for that Pete. [​IMG]
     
  8. Dr. Bob

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    Here Kitty, Kitty has to be a great parody . . but it is so real that it scares me! A couple of weeks ago we sang 3 in a row like that - Had a couple of capitalized "Him" so I assumed (perhaps wrongly, now) that it was talking mystically and neo-platonically about God.

    I love good music. I love good words. They DON'T all have to be heavy doctrine; that CAN express nothing but a heart of love.

    But they have to say SOMETHING! The diarrhetic drivvel that runs from many modern writers is a pathetic excuse for Christian music.
     
  9. JonathanDT

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    What were the songs? It would help to know exactly what songs are so much trouble.

    :rolleyes: The songs say exactly what needs to be said. Simple praise songs to God. We already have a couple hundred years of overcomplicated theological mutterings that mean absolutely nothing to many Christians. If we want more of them we'll simple translate the old ones into modern English with modern music. So instead we'll put our effort into writing what we don't have: Vertical worship songs that are easy to sing and understand while involving our hearts, souls, stength, and minds.
     
  10. Pete

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    Joshua, I was jack of all trades at last Church mate, did song-picking and guitar in service there...Amongst a dozen other things.. [​IMG]

    As mentioned on other thread I am "just" (for lack of a better word) in Sunday school at the moment [​IMG]

    Yep mate, I caught that just before I crashed out last night, was a bit tired to reply straight away after work [​IMG] Sort of the same deal now, just doing a bit before I turn in.


    Mate, I don't think the verse I wrote for "I Love My Cat" is exaggerated next to the standard of some of today's songs. If I added a couple of nice 2/4/6 chords behind it on guitar I think there would be a lot who would sing it as a "worship chorus." Move over Handel... ;)

    I never said they didn't, just pointing out that I could sing the same thing to my GF (if I had one), or our cat (if he was worth singing to..) ;)

    Look at Blessing Honour I quoted above mate (if it is not too out-dated now, being 13 years old)...Only 24 different words in it, yet what a solid little song. Now why sing any old "I Love My Cat" thing when it is possible to write something like Blessing Honour?

    One exposition of A Mighty Fortress Is Our God coming up...After some sleep [​IMG]


    Thanks enda, just don't hurt yourself laughing there ;)


    Dr Bob, even when I re-read it I don't know wether to laugh or cry...


    Another job for when I wake up this arvo, I'll dig up some examples.

    I have nothing against simple praise songs to God (Blessing Honour, He Is Lord, etc), however simple praise songs to cats (or whatever..)..Pass [​IMG]

    hmmm sounds to me like more of a problem with the Christians than with the songs? How do they handle sermons? Studies? Or has preaching and teaching turned to expounding the virtues of felis domesticas as some of the songs seem to have done?

    I'm not too old a ratbag (34 in July), I don't think Isaac Watts' or Charles Wesley's songs need translating...

    Pete
     
  11. Joshua Rhodes

    Joshua Rhodes
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    Though I agree with muliple facets of each argument being presented here, I don't agree that the hymns are "overcomplicated theological mutterings."

    I also will give my thoughts on "A Mighty Fortress" later.

    The problem is, that we as a society, and especially as a Christian sub-culture have become anti-intellectual. The reason one doesn't understand "Be Thou My Vision" is that one does not apply himself. I've never had any trouble figuring out what a hymn meant, or was trying to say. Now this is not to say that I'm not in favor of vertical worship songs that are simpler. I believe, and I practice in my church, a blended style of worship, attempting to employ staunch and strong hymns of our faith for theological fodder (Be Thou My Vision, A Mighty Fortress, etc.) as well as more modern vertical songs of our love for God and His love for us (We Fall Down, Knowing You, Agnus Dei, etc.). To say that one is better than the other is to rob the church of heritage and inheritance, in my opinion. I love to sing (in my private worship times) "My Jesus, I Love Thee" and follow it with "Step By Step". But then, I may be a strange breed. Just my humble opinion. [​IMG]
     
  12. ScottEmerson

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    One of the funniest things about A Mighty Fortress is Our God that I've ever seen is when a choir used it as a call to worship. However, they just used the first verse, which ends, "For still our ancient foe doth seek to work us woe; His craft and power are great, and, armed with cruel hate, On earth is not his equal."

    What a blessed way to begin a service, talking about Satan and all.

    I thought it was funny myself.

    SEC
     
  13. JonathanDT

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    Such as?

    Sure you could, if you believed your cat was God. Of course you would have to skip over many lyrics if you didn't want to be sleeping in a nice white room with padded walls.
    Different songs for different purposes. I would have no problem singing either song. The problem is when we take one example and say that every song should be like that one. Why can't we have more then one type of song, more then one type of music? Why should all songs be in the mold of the hymns, why not in the mold of the Psalms?


    Once again you haven't posted these cats songs. If I had a problem with singing a song that could easily be sung to Allah I would refuse to sing Amazing Grace. But no one ever complains about Amazing Grace...

    I think it might be helpful to update a couple words here or there, maybe rearrange them so they make sense in today's language. As it is they can be rather hard to follow, especially if you're singing them at the time because you can't exactly split your concentration to translate them into modern English.
     
  14. JonathanDT

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    Oh I know. [​IMG] I was using that more in response to Dr. Bob's inflamatory "drivvel" statement. I actually enjoy many hymns, and when I do have problems with them it's usually because of the funeral music that is being played with them. I've heard a couple hymns put to new music and they were absolutely fantastic. I generally take a more hardline anti-hymn stance on this board to counteract the hardline anti-P&W stance that some on this board have. But really I think they both belong.

    I think that is the absolute right approach. Limiting the style of music and songs to one type is pointless. Even if some won't admit it there is some spectacular music in both Hymns and praise and worship, so why not use them all? We were not instructed to sing with one type of song, but three. Apparently God doesn't give Hymns or any other type of song a monopoly on glorifying him.
     
  15. Joshua Rhodes

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    I agree Jonathan... Thanks for the encouragement.
     
  16. JonathanDT

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    Bump, still waiting for specific examples of all these "kitty" songs. Shouldn't be hard since there's so many of them...
     
  17. JonathanDT

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    Since you guys seem to be having trouble finding examples of the "drivvel" and "kitty" songs that makes up praise and worship music, I thought I would help you out. This is CCLI's top 25 songs list from their latest poll. These are the most popular worship songs, so I'm sure you can find what you're looking for in here:

    Lord I Lift Your Name On High
    Shout To The Lord
    Open The Eyes Of My Heart
    Come Now Is The Time To Worship
    Breathe
    You Are My All In All
    As The Deer
    I Love You Lord
    I Could Sing Of Your Love Forever
    Awesome God
    The Heart Of Worship
    Shine Jesus Shine
    Majesty
    Trading My Sorrows
    Change My Heart Oh God
    You Are My King
    Sanctuary
    Draw Me Close
    Above All
    My Life Is In You
    Give Thanks
    He Is Exalted
    Better Is One Day
    We Fall Down
    He Has Made Me Glad


    Enjoy. I hope you will be blessed by the lyrics you find in your search.

    `JD
     
  18. Dr. Bob

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    Draw Me Close
    Breathe

    both were used in our worship - not sure if they're the latest culprits I'm thinking of, since I can't seem to find lyrics for either on line. Maybe you could help?

    Appreciate it. I don't hang around that kinda music much.

    Let the river flow. Give me oil in my lamp. Lots of depth. :rolleyes:
     
  19. Joshua Rhodes

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    DRAW ME CLOSE Kelly Carpenter © 1994 Mercy/Vineyard Publishing

    Draw me close to You, never let me go.
    I lay it all down again to hear You say that I’m Your friend.
    You are my desire, no one else will do.
    ‘Cause no one else could take Your place
    To feel the warmth of Your embrace.
    Help me find the way, bring me back to You.

    You’re all I want. You’re all I’ve ever needed.
    You’re all I want. Help me know You are near.


    BREATHE Marie Barnett © 1995 Mercy/Vineyard Publishing

    This is the air I breathe,
    This is the air I breathe,
    Your holy presence living in me.

    This is my daily bread, this is my daily bread,
    Your very Word spoken to me.

    And I, I’m desperate for You.
    And I, I’m lost without You.
     
  20. Gib

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    I have not been one to jump on the "here kitty, kitty" bandwagon. But, "Draw Me Close", would probably be a good example of what the "here kitty, kitty" songs sound like. You could stick in "fetch, fido, fetch" or "Oh, your my girl."

    On the other hand, the song was probably written from the heart and has a strong tie between writer and the Lord. But, many songs written out of private worship are not always easily understood in public worship.
     

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