70 weeks described in Dan. 11

Nope. The 70th week was right after the 69th week. Show me in the Bible where we are to read there is this "pause" between the 69th and the 70th? (Hint: you can't). The 70th week dealt with the destruction of Jerusalem.

A.D. 40 when Caligula laid plans to have an image of himself set up in the Jerusalem Temple ( See Philo,; Josephus, Antiquities XVIII) After that castastrophe was averted, Josephus found the fulfillment of Daniel in the events of AD 66-70 (Antiquities X xi 7 "in the same manner Daniel also wrote about the empire of the Romans and that Jerusalem would be taken and the Temple laid waste".)

Also, there is no mention of the AntiChrist in Matthew 24. The Biblical doctrine of the AntiChrist( not the one you are proposing) is very different than what futurists describes.

I have to say. If a dispensationalist came to my home, I would treat them just like the JWs and Mormons that come knocking at the door. That is, grab the Bible and teach the Word to the ignorant. Go through the Bible and show them their errors.

 

No mention of the 7 year tribulation in Revelation.

There are two forty-two months period (11:2; 13:5), two 1260-day periods (11:3; 12:6) and one "time and times and half a time" (12:14), each adding up to 3.5 years. If these are counted consecutively , then they add up to 17.5 years, if they are concurrently , then each of these time periods are the same 3.5 years. Could you tell me how you get 7 year tribulation out of these verses? Which years go where in the 7 year tribulation?

 

Ok, Dispy from Dispy-land, lets look at how you interpret Scripture.

• Neither Daniel 9:24-27 nor Revelation uses the word AntiChristt
• The "prince" of Daniel 9:26 is not described as evil
• There is no record in Revelation or Daniel 9:27 of the AntiChrist making a covenant with Israel.
• There is no record in Revelation or Daniel 9:27 of the AntiChrist breaking a covenant.
• There is no mention of a rebuilt temple anywhere in the New Testament, including Revelation.

In summary Dispensationalism is more of a science fiction novel than a literal approach of interpreting the Scriptures. They make things up. Antiaging didn't come out and say it, but he/she believes the rapture will come by 2018. When the Bible states that no man knows, but hey, just like I said earlier, it is a science fiction novel.

 

You forgot this verse:
Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


Albert Barnes:

All things which are written may be fulfilled - Judgment had been threatened by almost all the prophets against that wicked city. They had spoken of its crimes and threatened its ruin. Once God had destroyed Jerusalem and carried the people to Babylon; but their crimes had been repeated when they returned, and God had again threatened their ruin. Particularly was this very destruction foretold by Daniel, Dan_9:26-27; “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself; and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.” See the notes at that passage.

John Gill:

For these be the days of vengeance,.... Of God's vengeance on the Jewish nation, for their rejection and crucifixion of the Messiah;

You'll find it a little more difficult here than :http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?t=94741

 

peterotto,
"A.D. 40 when Caligula laid plans to have an image of himself set up in the Jerusalem Temple ...".

GE
I thought Daniel somewhere said that it would be command to rebuild Jerusalem that would mark the start of the 70 weeks? Who is Josephus to fabricate his own story?

Josephus - or rather the Church taking him for Gospel - I just cannot understand.

No; I think the Seventh Day Adventists has the best time table of the Seventy Weeks Prophecy. It is part of God's Word afterall, and not only the SDA Church has seen it 'their' way. They have 'refined' it rather well, although I think they are mistaken in taking Stephen's death as the marking of its end. I think Acts 13 and the Pisidia incident closed the Jews 'time', and therewith the 70th week.

 

The most serious mistake the SDAs do with regard to the 70 weeks Prophecy is that they take its starting date for the 2300 morning and afternoon offerings which is another 'Prophecy' or rather symbol for something else that has no connection with the 70 weeks Prophecy which is properly eschatological of the Christ. Scarcely would I say the same of the 2300 morning and afternoon offerings-symbol.

 

And what do you people say of Isaac Watts ??? that great scientist and Christian -- was it he who said 2030 will be the return of Jesus? (I remember his year - his name has just eluded me.)

 

Look, some day someone must hit the nail on its head; maybe our scientist had it all worked out with the help of his mathematics; who knows? But why care, a Christian should ask himself.

But when asked of the OT Prophecies concerning Christ, 'time' even Christ expected the people should be able to distinguish. In the evenings you say the skies are red; in the mornigs you say very red; you are able to read the times but are blind to see The Sign of the times and of the 'fulness' of God's, 'times'! I am sure the 70 weeks was one of those 'time-signs' expected to be understood, and expected to be understood with reference to Christ's 'coming'!!

 

Quote from link "Here we have more biblical fiction from the fertile imagination of man."
That pretty much sums it up.

Dispys have been saying the "end is near" since 1850's. How much more do we need to listen before we say, "That's enough!". How many more times do they need to be wrong in their interpretation before we finally kick them out of our homes? Don't be coming to my house for a Bible study and spew out this stuff. You will be put on the spot to answer questions. ( Unlike Antiaging who does a hit and run job.).

I'm still looking for the 7year tribulation in the Scriptures. Could you dispy's show me where? I brought forth from my previous post the 3.5 years in Revelation, but no 7 years. Could you please show me which 3.5 year in Revelation goes where in the 7 year tribulation?

 

//Nope. The 70th week was right after the 69th week. Show me in the Bible where we are to read there is this "pause" between the 69th and the 70th? (Hint: you can't). The 70th week dealt with the destruction of Jerusalem.//

Your statement is self conflicting. The Destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple was in AD 0070. The Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came down and the Age of the Gentiles began was in AD 30-33 (I prefer the latter)

BTW, nobody here believes the dispensationalism in your straw man. So though you have 'won that argument' nobody is arguing with you. Here is my writing that God gave me about 'dispensationalism':

----------------------------------
Dispensation in the NT, KJV1769 version:

1 Corinthians 9:17 (KJV1769):
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward:
but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel
is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 (KJV1769):
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might
gather together in one all things in Christ, both
which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 (KJV1769):
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God
which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 (KJV1769):
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation
of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

The Holy Spirit hasn't shown me a lot more than is
here. I do know the Greek word being translated here
as 'dispensation' is the Greek word from which we get
'economy'.

I do know this is what the economy of God is like:

Bible Prophetic times:
'hour' = the appropriate time
'day' = the appropriate time
or '1 day' = 1,000 years
'½-week' = 3½-years
'1 day' = 'week' = 7 years
'month' = the appropriate time
year = the appropriate time

Other 'economy of God facts':

the blind see
the dead live
the deaf hear
the lame leap like deer
the first is last
the last is first
Jesus Saves (totally!)
God Rules!!

Frequently the Bible discusses:

What is to be is discussed in either
present tense (is done) or past tense
(done already done).

------------------------------------

Now if you disagree with the Bible (instead of random, computer generated, 'dispensation theory') we can discuss that.

 

I'm the guy you want to talk to. I have about two years of material, if you wish to study it. However, please don't agrue with other Eschatologal theories than mine, I've already read them all, I don't believe most of them anyway.

The best book that LaHaye ever wrote was HOW TO STUDY THE BIBLE FOR YOURSELF; Revised and Expanded Editon (Harvest 1998). So basicly all I studied (i read some other ideas and listened to other folk to see how they see Eschatology, but all I studied was my two dozen maybe three Bibles. My other area of study was various Versions in English, so I used them). My Eschatology is Ed's Theory, not the general list of pre-tribulation rapture, pre-Millinnial Second Advent of Messiah Jesus, a physical (flesh literal) Messanic Kingdom of a symbolic 1,000 years /but if it does turn out to be 1,000 years +or- 7 years - won't bother me:

----------------------------
The following uses:
rapture = like a resurrection but for the living
resurrection - being raised from the dead & given
a new body

--------------------------------------------------
I will show IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period. FOR IT IS WRITTEN
in Daniel 9:26-27 (nKJV):

"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah
shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to
come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations
are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with
many for one week; But in the middle
of the week He shall bring an end
to sacrifice and offering. And on
the wing of abominations shall be
one who makes desolate, Even until
the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."

Please note the lower case "h" in "he" in verse 27
refering not to Messiah in verse 26 but the
to the 'prince that shall come', not the Messiah Prince.
Note that the capital 'H' in the second 'He'
is to start a line of poetry - it also refers to
the 'prince that shall come', not the Messiah Prince.
Note it is written that the Anti-messiah's seven years
are divided in the middle by the abomination
of desolation (AOD), dividing the 7-year period into
to parts each 3½-years long (1260 days, 42 months).

The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection,
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 1 Thessalonains 4:13-18 (KJV1873):

But I would not have you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
that ye sorrow not, even as others which have
no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose
again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of
the Lord, that we which are alive and remain
unto the coming of the Lord shall
not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from
heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath) FOR IT IS WRITTEN in
1 Thessalonains 5:1-10 (KJV1873):

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren,
ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so cometh as
a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say,
Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
cometh upon them, as travail upon
a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,
that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light,
and the children of the day: we are
not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others;
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night;
and they that be drunken are drunken
in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day,
be sober, putting on the breastplate
of faith and love; and for an helmet,
the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether
we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together,
and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV1873):

Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
or be troubled, neither by spirit,
nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come, except
there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;

I have shown IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

---------------------------
Daniel seperates his 70th week from weeks 1-7 and 8-69. That is God's Written Word on the matter. My Eschatology seperates the weeks 1 to 69 from the 70th week also.

To come: The seperation of the Coming of Jesus for us Real Christians and for the lost; the same day Coming of Jesus for us and for the lost.

 

A.D. 26 was the time the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus Christ. This marks the last of the 7 years. He then brought the end of the OT by His death. Then the last 3.5 years concluded by the testament to be confirmed to Israel Acts 2:38

Lol! Since all dispensationalist disagree with each other, there really is no straw man. Even you agree to this. See your quote.

I can ask "Will the real dispensationalist please stand up.", but no one will. It seems there are more branches in that theology than ever. To each their own.....I guess.

 

That is 100% correct!

ALL Bible prophetic timelines that are quantified are contiguous -- every single one without exception!.

In fact once you start slicing and dicing a numeric timeline such as the "70 year prophetic timeline" in Dan 9:1-5 OR the 70-7's timeline (490 year timeline) at the END of Dan 9 -- then the numeric ruler that it provides is made void.

Imagine having a 12 inch ruler with an undefined gap of space inserted into the middle. You could never use it to measure 1 foot!

So what then is the "excuse" used to slice/dice this section of scripture?

Now here is the truly sad part of the dispensational slicing of scripture in this case - EVERYONE agrees that the 490 year messianic prophecy found in Dan 9 is the MOST amazing - most blatant - most clear - most SPECIFIC Messianic prophecy in terms of TIME - predicting the exact time and nature of the work of the Messiah IN ALL of the OT.

YET the dispensational "slicing of Dan 9" carves it up in such a way that NONE OF THAT prophecy - no not one single year - is "allowed" to apply to the Messiah!!! How shocking! How sad!

in Christ,

Bob

 

//ALL Bible prophetic timelines that are quantified are contiguous -- every single one without exception!.//

Show me another prophetic timeline that has three seperate parts specified: weeks 1-7, weeks 8-69, week 70; week 70 is further divided into two each 3½-year parts.

 

We seem to have another seperate problem here with Dispensationalism.
I'm not talking about Ed. I'm talking about in general.
The problem is the way Dispensationalist deal with answering questions.
See quote below

Is that how you win your argument? This kind of behavior is common amoung those in the Dispensationalist camp. Antiaging isn't the first dispy I came accross that does this. What a shame.

Rant ON
I used to dislike the theology of dispensationalism and thought the people who believed in that system were good people but in error..........Times have changed. Now, not only do I dislike the system, I am also disliking the people who believe in it. ( Not you Ed). I am really sick of these unaccontable dispys. I get this same kind of treatment from JW, mormons, Catholics, and now dispensationalist.
Rant OFF

 

Dan 9:1-5 contains the 70 year timeline prophecy - no slicing and dicing -- no "inserting undefined gaps of time" into the timeline.

Dan 7 points to a 1260 year timeline "Times, Time and 1/2 time" - that are taken together and amount to 1260 years predicted for the dark Ages.

Dan 9 leading to the appearing of the Messiah - deal with the building of the wall and the city and also the time following until the Messiah.

456BC straight through to 27 AD "7 weeks and 62 weeks" still ONE contiguous group that is then followed by the 3rd contiguous segment - the last week.

ANY TIME you have the ENTIRE timeline lumped into ONE timeline as ONE number (70 weeks, 70 years, 1260 days, 2300 days...etc) it must ALWAYs be contiguous so that the single timeline reference continues to work as a timeline ruler.

obviously.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I don't know who wrote this:

Apocalyptic guesswork, with its convoluted calculations and misleading assumptions is a seriously damaging distraction to the very issue upon which God Himself has fixed all end time events;

namely - our Gospel Task!​

​

[click for the two principal reasons for Christian confusion on this issue]​

AD 131

​

Autumn: Akiba, Chief Rabbi of Israel, proclaims Simeon Bar-Kokhba (Kosiba) to be the Christ! Simeon leads a carefully prepared revolt against Rome, after it becomes known that emperor Hadrian is to build Roman temples in Jerusalem.​

132

​

The so-called 'Letter of Barnabas' is produced among Egyptian Christians, spreading a view of history as a Great Week of 1000 year ages, the sabbath age being the 'millennium' of the book of Revelation, which misleads multitudes over subsequent years.​

156

​

Montanus of Phrygia begins to prophesy of the imminent return of Christ. The New Jerusalem as a physical city would descend on Phrygia. His movement spreads in the Christian church throughout Asia Minor and North Africa to Rome itself, influencing many leading Christians.​

c.220

​

(Saint) Hippolytus of Rome supports the date of the Creation as 5500 years before Christ and writes, ​

'From the birth of Christ one must count another 500 years,

and only then the End will come.' ​

In other words, he set the date according to the Great Week idea of history (500 AD according to his calculation).

410​

As Rome is sacked by invaders, BishopAugustine reports some Christians as saying, 'from Adam all the years have passed, and behold, the 6000 years are completed.' (following the 'Great Week' idea of history).

490s​

The start of the Great Week (the date of Creation) is now moved to 5200 years before Christ (thus, 6000 Anno Mundi = 800 AD).
Nevertheless Christianity is still disturbed by several 'prophets' announcing the imminent coming of Antichrist.

786​

Stories, such as, 'the sign of the cross appeared in the clothing of men, and blood poured forth from the skies and the earth, and other signs appeared whence an enormous dread and salubrious fear invaded the populace ...', begin to spread in anticipation of the End in 800 AD.

999​

December: the Great Week idea has now focused on the year 1000 AD.
Fanaticism reaches panic level in many communities, bands of flagellants roam the countryside, and mobs call for the execution of sorcerers and unpopular officials.

1000​

Christ does not come, but a wave of church building spreads in Europe.

1033​

Belief in the millennium of Christ's death and resurrection as the date for the Great Resurrection fills the roads to Jerusalem with pilgrims anticipating His Return.

1186​

September: the 'Toledo Letter' prophecy spreads through Europe setting the year 1186 as the apocalyptic coming of the Millennium.
The Archbishop of Canterbury calls a three day fast throughout Britain to prepare for it.

1200​

Catholic Abbot, Joachim of Fiore's idea of Seven Stages leading to Christ's Return (ending the sixth 'day' of the Great Week) gains wide acceptance. He teaches that 1200 is 40 generations since Christ and thus the start of transition to the Millennium.
His followers date the End as 1260 AD.

1254​

Emperor Frederick II's propagandists 'prove' that Pope Innocent IV is the Antichrist by showing that his Latin name adds up to 666.

1260​

The Apostolic Brethren sect forms (the first doomsday cult) in response to Joachim's apocalyptic ideas and in 1307 they take up arms in Italy against the corruption of the Roman Church (their spiritual 'Babylon') in order to precipitate the End.

1420​

February 10-14, is set by the Taborite movement of Bohemia (named after the Mount of Transfiguration) as the date of Christ's Return. When He does not come their priests teach that He had come secretly (as Jehovah's Witnesses would do in 1914). They form an organized apocalyptic community and take up arms against their opponents.

1421​

October: a Taborite army of 400 annihilate a breakaway group known as Adamites who believed the Bible verse "At midnight a cry went up 'Behold, the Bridegroom cometh'" (Mat.25:6) gave them authority to kill every man, woman and child they found as judgment to inaugurate Christ's coming.

1434​

Taborite troops continue to rampage throughout central Europe killing their opponents until stopped by a Bohemian army. Their last stronghold is destroyed in 1452 AD.

1490​

Catholic Priest, Girolamo Savonarola of Florence, begins preaching the imminent coming of Antichrist, and prophesying of God's coming judgment. Expectations develop of the Return of Christ in 1500 AD. The Medici rulers are cast out and a Christian republic is formed.


​

 

1500​

Botticelli's famous painting, 'Mystic Nativity', carries his note in Greek:

'I Sandro painted this picture at the end of the year 1500 in the troubles of Italy in the half-time after the time according to the 11th chapter of St. John in the second woe of the Apocalypse in the loosing of the devil for three and a half years (i.e. rule of Antichrist). Then he will be chained ... as in this picture.' ​

But the End does not come!​

1523​

David Reuveni arrives in Jerusalem as Israel's end time Messiah, after its surrender to the Ottoman empire (known for its friendliness to Jews), precipitating a change in the special Jewish prayer place from the Mount of Olives and Gates of Temple Mount to the Western (Wailing) Wall.​

1525​

Müntzer of Thuringia leads the people of Münster to start the Millennium by violent revolution against corrupt leaders.​

1552​

Oxford martyr, Bishop Hugh Latimer, writes 'The world was ordained to endure, as all learned men affirm, 6000 years. Now of that number there be passed 5552 years, so that there is no more left but 448.' (i.e. 2000 AD).​

1595​

Arnold de Wion, a Benedictine monk, publishes the so-called 'Prophecies of Saint Malachi' in the name of Malachi O'Morgair, an Irish bishop who died 1148 (canonized in 1190), which claims to describe 112 popes from his time to the end of the world and Christ's return as 'Terrible Judge'. De Wion's effort should be seen against the background of the Catholic Church's counter-reformation in reaction to the spread of Protestantism. (See 1979).​

1640​

The 'Fifth Monarchy Men' designate 1650 as the start of the End and 1700 as the coming of the Millennium (calculated as 1290 years for the days of Dan.12:11, + 365 AD for the abomination-of-desolation of Caesar Julian the 'Apostate' + 45 years for Daniel's captivity = 1700 AD).​

1648​

Rabbi Shabbetai Tzevi of Smyrna declares this year as Israel's Redemption.​

1654​

Ussher of Armagh fixes the date of Creation as 4004 BC (26th October at 9 AM), and the End as 1997 AD (6000 AM of the Great Week) when the Millennium begins.​

1665​

Shabbetai Tzevi is proclaimed Messiah by most Jewish communities of Europe and the Middle East.​

1666​

Tzevi is arrested by the Ottoman government and then converts to Islam.​

1700​

The Millennium does not come (see 1640).​

1733​

Isaac Newton thinks the Coming of Christ to be about 2000 AD.​

1774​

Ann Lee (tongues-speaking Quaker) founds the United Society of Believers in Christ's Second Appearing (Shakers) as the Millennial church in America (promoting celibacy). She declares herself to be the reincarnation of Christ and female aspect of God's dual nature. The Shakers win the admiration of many for their inventiveness (the circular saw, screw propeller, rotary harrow, etc), model farms and their orderly prosperous communities.​

1790​

Catholic prophet Suzette Labrousse, inspired by the French revolution, announces the coming of the Millennium to be in the year 1800.​

1800​

The Millennium does not arrive (see 1790).​

1802​

Prophetess Joanna Southcott in England begins 'sealing' the '144 000' elect for the End. Her thousands of followers include some Anglican clergy.​

1825​

Britain's Rev Edward Irving predicts that Christ will return in 1864 (the Irvingites are the origin of the Catholic Apostolic Church, and today's New Apostolic Church. The Old Apostolic Church is a South African break-away from this group).​

1826​

Edward Irving begins his "school of the prophets" focusing on end time issues.​

​

​