77 Hour Doctor of Ministry Program w/o a Master of Divinity

Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges / Seminaries' started by Rhetorician, Aug 10, 2011.

  1. Rhetorician

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    Hear ye!! Hear ye! Hear ye!

    This is going to light up this section of the BB like it has not been in a long time. I pride myself, possibly too much, on being one who "is in the know!" Just got word this morning that Anderson University, SBC in South Carolina, has just started a DMin degree in Preaching that is only 77, count them 77 hours long total. It is built on their own 42 sem hour Master of Ministry degree. The Doctor of Ministry is 35 hours on top of that making the DMin a total of 77 semester hours of work, if I have done the math correctly?

    Here is the web page:

    http://www.auministry.com/cms/Academic-Programs/Program-Overview

    I really want to hear from all of you out there who have a DMin based on the 90+ hour Master of Divinity.

    Does this move cheapen the whole theological educational enterprise? Is the MDiv going, going, gone? This really is a "game changer" in my mind.

    What say ye everyone? :BangHead:

    "That is all!"

    PS I also understand the North Greenville is going to do/has done something similar?!!
     
    #1 Rhetorician, Aug 10, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2011
  2. Siberian

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    So it works out to be one credit hour less than the traditional model (42-hour M.M. plus a 77-hour D.Min = 119; vs. 90-hour M.Div. plus 30-hour D.Min = 120). It seems like the school is making room for those without an M.Div. to do their 'leveling work' within the D.Min. program.

    Update: Sorry, I read your post too quickly. The 77 hours is the total program time, M.M. + D.Min. That does change things quite a bit.
     
    #2 Siberian, Aug 10, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2011
  3. Rhetorician

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    Rhetorician Response

    If I have understood properly, "out the door" if you will, the whole program is 13 sem hours less than a traditional SBC 90 sem hour MDiv. :tonofbricks:

    "That is all!"
     
  4. PilgrimPastor

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    Sure could save someone a lot of work from 90 credit M.Div. and a 30 credit hour D.Min. BUT it may also save a congregation a significant portion of the preparation that affords their pastor also...

    It absolutely cheapens the degree... I know of another Baptist school that has at least had leadership suggest allowing D.Min. students directly from a 30 credit hour M.M. Perhaps it is a trend??? You find many unaccredited online schools offering a similar track of study, M.M. then D.Min.
     
  5. StefanM

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    Of course it cheapens the process, but why don't we all just cut through the garbage and ditch the MDiv entirely?

    Make the first professional degree the Doctor of Ministry (Or Doctor of Divinity, Doctor of Practical Theology, etc.).

    The DMin is attractive because it grants the title "Doctor." I would be willing to wager that DMin enrollments would freefall if the degree were a "Master of Sacred Theology."

    If we make the first professional degree a doctorate, we get rid of the need for the post-MDiv DMin except for those who genuinely want to further their education, irrespective of title.


    I'm not saying that the title is the only motivating factor, but we can't pretend like it isn't a major factor.

    If the first-professional degree is a doctorate, that makes it similar to the JD, MD, DDS, DVM, PharmD, DO, OD, and DPM.

    Further specialized education could be like the post-JD LLM programs, or one could always pursue the Ph.D.
     
  6. TomVols

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    I'd like to know what the admission requirements are for the Master of Ministry. If a M.Min is open to anyone, then yes it opens the door for a cheapening of the enterprise. However, if the M.Min requires a BA/BS with significant theological/ministerial work (like a Bible College BA, for example) then I have no problem with it. I still believe the M.Div should be sought by people who have a BA/BS in a discipline other than theology or ministry, and those who do have such should have another option to avoid repetition.
     
  7. PilgrimPastor

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    That's a good point. I remember being asked by a church member if I had my "Divinity Degree" when I was the Associate Pastor. I said no, but (at the time, I have since earned that degree) I do have a Bachelor in Bible / Theology with many of the same courses. She was basically asking me when I was going to grow up and be a "real" pastor I think...

    It seems silly to require someone to (in many cases) re-take the same or very similar coursework for an M.Div. when they have a similar track of training already. I'm glad for the additional coursework but I have spent a lot more time in Bible / Theology / Ministry / Leadership / etc. courses than someone with even a 90 credit hour M.Div. and an undergraduate degree in business.

    This is a good point.
     
  8. Rhetorician

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    Rhetorician Response

    Tom Dear Brother,

    I must say that I have mixed emotions about it. I think it cheapens the DMin process if not built on the MDiv.

    However, if I were coming up now and wanted the doctorate name and title, and could get to the program; I would probably be the first in line. Did I say that? :tonofbricks:

    "That is all!"
     
  9. TomVols

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    I hear you, my friend. I think Michael Duduit wouldn't want to cheapen the route to a doctoral program. Just my .03 cents....wait....02 cents.....wait......man, this market is a roller coaster :laugh:
     
  10. Rhetorician

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    Master of Ministries

    Tom,

    The MMinstries degree looks pretty good. Looks like a 1/2 or Jr MDiv.

    Very interesting turn of events to say the least. Like I said, if I were young and in the market I would take it into consideration for sure. :flower:

    "That is all!"
     
  11. Crucified in Christ

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    I think what makes this option so attractive is that it is a very reputable university which is offering this program. Certainly there is nothing wrong with having an advanced degree from a Southern Baptist alligned University which is ranked 21st in the South according to US News and World Report.
     
  12. TCGreek

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    This kind of rhetoric is sad. I hope it doesn't become the norm. Why do we feel the need to compete?
     
  13. StefanM

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    It's not a matter of competition. It's a matter of consistency in academic credentials.
     
  14. go2church

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    In my opinion the 90 hour M.Div is too long just to receive a Master's. I have always thought that the M.Div should be looked at like a JD. Consider you can get a masters in 30 to 48 hours in education add another 24-36 for a doctorate plus dissertation.

    Anything that can provide the training and speed up the process I think should be welcomed.
     
  15. PilgrimPastor

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    But that would disrupt the overly marketed and often bloated seminaries from raking in another 10k+ for the D.Min.
     
  16. Rhetorician

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    Test Post

    Test Post

    "That is all!" :godisgood:
     
  17. TomVols

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    Prima Facie, I don't disagree. That said, I don't know that such a Master's does provide the same training for someone with a BS in business or in Political Science. They need the intros that tend to bloat the M.Div.
     
  18. Crucified in Christ

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    Tom,

    I think you have really pointed out the sticking point. The Master of Divinty is really set-up so that a business (or similar) major can come in and get both an introductory Biblical education as well as more in-depth ministry training all in the same degree.

    The answer is simple: we need two degrees. The traditional MDiv. for students with no Biblical Studies/Theology background as well as a degree that skips these intro studies for the students who meet the undergraduate qualifications. This is why I like what AU is doing. Offer a Master of Ministry to these sorts of students. It would save time, money and repetition. I simply don't see the down-side.
     
  19. StefanM

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    We don't really need two degrees, IMO.

    I think the MDiv should be at most a 60 hour program, and it could be based on a prerequisite undergraduate religion degree. The seminary could offer either the prerequisite hours or a second BA completion program for those entering with a non-religion degree. The religion majors could skip straight to the regular courses.

    Alternatively, seminaries could offer a series of graduate leveling courses designed for non-majors (this is common in MBA programs).

    Most advanced standing programs as it stands in seminary are not helpful. If you are exempt from the introductory courses but are required to take higher level, intensive courses, the MDiv program you are taking is substantively different from your cohorts without advanced standing. At the end, however, you get an MDiv with the same number of hours.
     
    #19 StefanM, Aug 15, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2011
  20. Crucified in Christ

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    Ths is another excellent approach and one that I certanly would support.

    We are completely in agreement here.
     

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