90 minutes in heaven

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by pinoybaptist, Mar 6, 2008.

  1. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    (note to moderators: there is a post similar to this at the Books.....threads. by posting the same thing here, if I violate the spam policies, you may delete this if you wish, and I apologize in advance).

    Most of us folks tend take OBE (out of body experiences) testimonies with either a pinch of salt, or a ladleful of salt. I am kinda in between.
    The reason being that "absent with the body, present with the Lord", and all that, plus who wants to come back to earth if you're already in heaven ?
    But this gentleman, Don Piper, says that's exactly what happened to him.
    He was coming from a conference when on a stretch of Dallas street or highway a semi crossed over to his lane and slammed into his car.
    He says the paramedics said he died instantly.
    He says he found himself in heaven, heard music, did not see Christ but did see a very bright light just surrounding the place, met all his friends and relatives whom he knew to be believers while on earth, and so on.
    He says he knows a passing Baptist minister prayed for him even though he was told it was hopeless, and thinks that because of that Baptist minister's prayers he came back to life.
    Now, mind you, I have not read the book totally, but my wife is reading it right now, and every now and then, she would pop a question for me.
    Like: didn't Stephen see the Lord face to face even while he was yet dying ? How come he didn't ? Stuff like that.

    Anyway, the gentleman's name is Don Piper, he is a Baptist minister, and from what I understand, belongs to the Baptist General Conference, and he comes from the Lone Star state.

    Any of you all know or heard about him ? Or read his book ?
    What is your opinion.
    I still take stuff like this with a tablespoonful of salt.
    Not saying it don't happen, or can't happen.

    Hey, I've seen demon-possessed people up close and personal, and dealt with some.

    Now, some of us don't think THAT happens, but it does, so I take this with salt.
     
  2. Sopranette

    Sopranette
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    i do remember talking about this book before. I do believe he had some kind of genuine experience, maybe an OBE, I don't know, but his account goes against scripture, partly because we will not have any communion with the dead. It is an intersting story, and worth reading, but I don't believe he was actually in Heaven.
    I have read OBE experiences before, by both believers and atheists, and it is intresting to see the results. Some claim to have seen thier own lifeless bodies lying there, others claim to have been in Heaven or even Hell at times. Some say they see angels and deceased loved ones. I don't know if it's all some kind of hallucination, though.

    love,

    Sopranette
     
  3. revmikewelch

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    Actually Don Piper came to speak at the church I pastor a couple of years ago (before I was here). The people loved him and he was quite convincing. The whole idea however seems to fly in the face of what Jesus said in Luke 16...

    Someone gave me a copy of the book and I skimmed through it, it's mostly about Piper's accident and recovery, only a few pages about his 90 minutes in Heaven. His description of Heaven is very sterile and non-descriptive. Also I preached on Heaven a few months after I got to the church and a few people told me that some of the things that I preachd contradicted what he had said about Heaven (although to be honest the details escape me now), I told them my description came out of the Bible, his seems to have come out of his head. Also the man spent 90 minutes in Heaven and never saw Jesus, and never saw God. What's that about???

    I have no doubt the man had an experience, but I am convinced he was not in Heaven. To be absent from the body is to be present with God, he was never with God. I'm amazed that as Baptists we say that we stand on God's word and not experiences, but then someone has an experience we like and we can't get enough of it... If you want to read a good book on Heaven try and find an old copy of R.G. Lee's book A Place Called Heaven, or Randy Alcorn's book Heaven.
     
  4. Beth

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    Thiw book

    This book doesn't test well to Scripture.

    On page 31, the author writes of the songs he alledgedly heard in heaven.

    Here is a direct quote.

    As I stood before the gate, I didn't think of it, but later I realized that I didn't hear such songs as "the Old Rugged Cross" or "The Nail-Scarred Hand." None of the hymns that filled the aire were about Jesus' sacrifice of death. I heard no sad songs and instinctively knew that there are no sad songs in heaven. Why would there be? All were praises about Christ's reign as King of Kings and our joyful worship for all he has done for us and how wonderful he is.

    The above quote contradicts Scripture.

    Revelation 5:6 ΒΆ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
    7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
    8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
    9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

    This is a blatant contradiction of Scripture.

    Furthermore, I would wonder also if the author was Kingdom Now.

    Hebrews tells us that all things are not YET put under Him....

    Hebrews 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
    8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

    So anyhoo, my take on this book is to file it in the circlular file. :thumbs:
     
  5. revmikewelch

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    Indeed file 13 is fine place for it, I just can't get over the fact that many Pastors and churches have embraced his book. No doubt we'll see the 90 Minutes in Heaven Bible Study at a Christian Book store any day...
     
  6. Beth

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    Lol

    LOL! Check it out, brother! http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000S9D4M4/?tag=baptis04-20
     
  7. Martin

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    I have edited this post to clean it up a bit.

    Scripture should be our only authority on all matters of faith and practice.

    All near death experiences (NDEs) should be taken with a grain of salt.

    The fact is that we don't know the true source of such experiences. Many false teachers have "positive" NDEs that clearly contradict God's Word. Because of that some have suggested that these events are demonic in nature. Certainly for such false teachers that is a real danger. However that does not account for the near death experiences of true believers.

    Some scientists have been able to duplicate so-called NDEs by stimulating the right side of the brain. When that is done the patient hears voices of loved ones, sees loved ones, sees a tunnel and white light, has a feeling of being loved, etc. So many of these vision type NDEs could be biological in nature (source=the physical brain).

    There are a few examples which are highly unlikely to be biological in nature since these examples involved verifiable facts. For example, a lady who had a heart attack could describe a shoe on the roof of the hospital. The shoe was found and her story could be verified. However such verifiable NDEs are really rare. When they occur, however, such NDEs cause a major problem for those people who deny the existence of the human soul.

    However when we are dealing with NDEs that contain only "visions" of angels, dead folks, lights, etc, and not verifiable facts, we can't be totally sure what the source of those things are. That is because many of those type experiences can be duplicated in a lab. Thus it is very hard to make the case that such experiences are not biological.

    The point is that Mr. Piper's experiences could very well have been a dream. When asked about that on Janet Parshall's show the other day, Piper said it was not a dream because it was "so real". That is not a really good reply but I suppose it is the best he can do. He probably thinks he really went to heaven. Maybe he did or maybe it was just a dream. Either way Scripture alone should be our source of information about life after death.

    Such experiences, even those that can be verified, don't prove anything. Why not?

    1. Non-verifiable experiences could very well be biological and not spiritual. In which case a tramatic experience triggers something in the brain that causes the experience. While some of these experiences maybe spiritual in nature I think I am safe in assuming that many are biological.

    2. Verifiable NDEs do not prove the existence of eternal life or a pleasent after-life. All such experiences prove is that human consciousness can exist outside of the physical brain for a period of time. How long? These experiences can't answer that. In what form? These experiences can't answer that.

    The only source for true, helpful information on life after death is the Word of God. Anything outside of the Bible is suspect.

    Btw...I have read Mr. Piper's book (a friend gave me a copy). It is an interesting read no doubt. There are points, however, that cause me to wonder. Many such points sould less like Scripture and more like a southern gospel song. At the end of the day I don't know if Mr. Piper really went to heaven or if he had a dream. In fact, we don't even know that he truly died. Just because he did not have a detectable pulse does not mean he was dead. His brain could very well have been active and producing the dream.

    Either way I will stick with the Word of God as my source.
     
    #7 Martin, Mar 6, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 6, 2008
  8. Beth

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    Good points

    Very good points, Martin!
     
  9. pinoybaptist

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    neither my wife nor i swallowed this stuff. like i said, she would pop such questions as " didn't the Bible say this, or didn't the Bible say that" ?
    too much salt, i guess. lol.
    but let me ask you guys, since we're on this "incredible" topic.
    many years back, in Western Samar, (that's a municipality [county here] in the province [state here in the US]), where my wife was born, in a town called Gandara, there was this cadaver of an adolescent child who died a few years back, which never decomposed.
    they had her laying there at her parent's house, in a glass coffin, and she looked as fresh as if she were alive.
    no black spots where blood may have settled, no paleness of the skin, none of the things we usually see on dead people.
    i saw her.
    i was a Roman Catholic at the time, single, my wife and I were sweethearts, and we went and visited the "shrine" at her house just out of curiousity's sake.
    you know.
    big city boy, street wise, been here and there, done this and that, 20 some years old, heck, i knew everything about everything, and this is superstition at its height, and there has to be a reasonable explanation, and all that jazz.
    but there she was.
    and the "pilgrims" would take oil or moisture filling the top of the half of her glass coffin, and swear the last time they were there, hey, their aunt matilda's never healing sores actually closed !
    lol.
    of course, from a one-meal-a-day, walk-5-miles-to-town, couple, her parents at that time had become a little more "affluent", thanks to the donations from the "pilgrims".
    (hey, it's something for something, you tightwad).

    so, have any of you heard of such a thing happening elsewhere ?
    what do you think is the explanation for a corpse that doesn't rot quick ?

    you can leave out the arsenic bit, because that girl died due to an accident. I think she was a passenger in a vehicle that jumped off the road down a 30 or 50 feet ravine just out of town.
     
    #9 pinoybaptist, Mar 7, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 7, 2008
  10. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    unbelievable.
    any where we can take a look at sales statistics ?

    I can't believe how a preacher could peddle such extra Biblical stuff and actually try and make money out of it.

    Of course, he may have incurred a lot of expenses during his rehabilitation and some bills may still be unpaid.

    now, that i can understand.
     
  11. Martin

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    There are a lot of factors that must be taken into consideration. I dont' know if you are talking about Rosalia Lombardo or a simular situation. If it is the same girl, I would point out that the situation with the body is starting to change. Time will, sooner or later, have its say. If it is not the same girl I would just say it shows that these things happen.

    One of my friend's husbands worked in a funeral home before he died of cancer. He said that bodies decompose at different rates. Some embalmed bodies decompose fast. Others, like Lenin's do not.

    I have no Biblical reason to believe that any of these cases are miracles.
     
  12. pinoybaptist

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    I'm not sure of the name, but it's definitely not Rosalia Lombardo.
    I clicked on the link you provided and found out Rosalia was from Italy.
    Thanks for thinking I'm Italian. Lol.
    I'm Filipino.

    Maybe she has decomposed now.
    I hope the parents saved the money they made.

    That's a very poor town in a very poor province.
     
  13. ituttut

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    What about proof? We all have "experiences", but we all don't have proof. If Paul could not "utter" or tell us about heaven, then why do some believe God has chosen them to enlighten the the world? I believe "self" has overtaken such people. John gives us a glimpse, but this is the time of God's wrath.

    I'm happy to see most here can see through this erroneous thinking on the part of some. I'm not saying this man is not being truthful in what he believes to be true, but what he may believe to be true should not interfere with what we know to be true. He has no scripture to back him up, which doesn't seem to bother him.

    I'm just home from about an 18-day stay in the hospital after a "gall bladder" operation that "gangrene" had set in (death of living cells). The operation itself is normally a routine procedure (without the "gangrene), and one is usually out of hospital in a day or so if operation can be as laparoscopic cholecystectomy. If any of you old timers out there have had "gall bladder" surgery done the "Old cutting way" you will know what pain, before and after is like. But adding "gangrene" is life threatening if cannot be stopped, or gotten rid of.

    While the operation was going on I remember (indications it was touch and go) seeing "bars" around, and above me, being in pain and could not tell anyone (had tube down my throat and could not talk), and no one to turn to. I thought about Jesus being in the earth with the bars of death and hell holding Him in for three days and three nights. Please don't think I'm trying to equate myself with Him in this experience, but I thought and prayed, please God you can't leave me here, for that is not what you have promised we that "believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation" It seemed forever, but then all of sudden the tube was removed and I hollered, Please, I am in great pain. Don't you have something else to give me for pain, and they did.

    For two or three days they were giving me some strong medicine, especially at night.
    Even though awake, each day (two or three), and awaking at night, nothing was really changing in my treatment, each day and night all being alike - pain, nurses in and out taking blood, blood pressure, can you fell this, and your breathing is laboring, asking with concern are you OK. We'll be back to check on you in a little bit. Even though my wife came to see me those days, there was really nothing changing. It seemed endless, like this will go on forever, as nothing was changing, but just every thing being repeated (reminded me of one of the old shows of the "Twilight Zone".


    I thought, could this be what "hell" will be like; in pain, day after day, confusion and suffering, and remembering. But I knew I had accepted Him, and believed the gospel of Acts 16:30-31, "And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
    31. And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." And we can add Ephesians 2:2-9, along with John 3:16. Until one goes through such experiences as this, we really don't know how we will respond, or think. It was just impossible that I could be in hell for I had the Word of God this would not be my destination.

    So this is why I disagree with the gentleman John Piper (not having read his book), but what has been put forth here could just not be so. I have scripture to back me up, and not just my experience. It scarred the living day lights out of me, the thoughts of this experience, but I knew I would not be in darkness, pain, and confusion and uncertain forever.

    I don't believe I saw how dark, and bad "hell" will be and I don't believe Mr. Piper saw how bright, and happy heaven is. I had an experience, just as he. But it was my experience, which did not mesh with scripture.
    __________________
    Christianfaith, ituttut
    Gal.1:11-12
     
  14. pinoybaptist

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    Brother Ituttut:

    Haven't had a gall bladder operation so I can't say I know what you're talking about. The pain, I mean.
    I'm glad you made it, though.
    Welcome back to the BB.

    Right now, all I can say is the pain I don't EVER want to experience again is transfusion of that thing they call potassium.

    When I had my quadruple bypass last 2003 they said my potassium level was low.

    I tell you, each bag took over an hour to drip through that tube and into my vein, and the pain was searing hot like boiling mercury going into your veins.

    My nurse had to wrap my wrist in ice !

    Oh, fwiw, the OR nurse told my nurse that I was singing something about a title in heaven after I "went under".

    Don't know if that is true.

    oh, by the way, the gentleman's name is not John Piper.

    It's Dan Piper.

    John. Dan.

    Well, they do sound alike.
     
  15. ituttut

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    I can sympathize with you here pinoybaptist as I had thirty (30) minuets of this pain, ice helped some, and then they plied me with the "big" potassium pills for a day or so. A different type of pain to be sure than we have ever experienced, and not much we can do to lessen. The "gall bladder" pain is more akin to Heart (and difficult to take a deep breath), and little they can do to lessen the pain. Morphine doesn't come close to relieving. The pain is always under your right rib cage, and hits you all at once. I first thought heart and got to emergency room. I'm glad to know we don't have two "gall bladders".

    Just as info, I've had heart trouble for 50 or so years, and they spotted this first which delayed them getting to my "gall bladder", the gangrene spreading all the time they checking out the heart, which was more that 15 hours. Can't fault anyone, and just thank God he sent the Doctors he did.[/quote]

    Oh, fwiw, the OR nurse told my nurse that I was singing something about a title in heaven after I "went under".

    Don't know if that is true.[/quote]
    The nurse knows.
    My error. I know of a John Piper.

    Thanks for your reply, and sharing your thoughts.
     
  16. kmichael

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    Accually the heretic in question is DON Piper. NOT Dan or John.


    :jesus:
     
  17. D28guy

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    RevMikeWelch...

    Actually, thats not a problem at all. If he was in Heaven, then he was with God. It doesnt matter if he was physically looking at Jesus, or the Father, or not.

    When I was growing up, when I was upstairs in my bedroom I was with my family, even though I wasnt looking at them. They were downstairs, but I was still with them. I was literally with them.

    I dont know if this man was actually in heaven or not. But from what I have read and heard about, he could very well have been there. The fact that he had not physically seen God...*yet*...does not mean He wasnt with God. He was with God the instant He entered Heaven.

    God bless,

    Mike
     
  18. pinoybaptist

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    Heretic ? Now, don't you think that's a pretty strong word to describe this gentleman ?

    He may be enthusiastic for what he believes he actually experienced, and it seems to me he's not actually putting this forward as a doctrine.

    But I must confess I don't know that. Didn't read his book. My wife lost interest and returned it the next day.
     
  19. kmichael

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    Of course heretic is not too strong a word. The man claims extra-biblical divine revelation. Also, he describes heaven in terms of the biblical anthropomorphic language not intended to be a literal description. It may well be he thinks he saw what he saw. But in reality it is his mind playing tricks on him. God does not reveal new revelation today through dreams and visions. The canon is closed. Beware these ravaging wolves!

    K
     
  20. Beth

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    I would have to agree

    Piper has a follow up as well, a sequel, so to speak. It is entitled Heaven is Real.


    I believe that the Bible is more than sufficient to comfort us in our sufferings (Paul wrote about his infirmities and persecutions and the consolation he received) and to reassure us that Heaven is in deed real.

    I don't see the need for someone to go to Heaven and report back to us, as if the Biblical account is insufficient. Christ's revelation through John seems pretty descriptive and convicting.
     

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