A Baseball Diamond

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Rippon, Aug 7, 2006.

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  1. Rippon

    Rippon
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    I'm not much of a baseball fan but I thought it might be helpful to illustrate some ideas about English Bible translations .

    From homeplate to firstplate are the unduly free versions like The Message and Living Bible . A number of others are still in the category but not so extreme .

    From first to second are paraphrases like the Phillips . Somewhat free , but in my opinion on much higher ground than The Mesage and The L.B.

    From 2nd to 3rd the baseline starts to get really crowded . I would think that the NLT2 would start the process . Then the Norlie , Weymouth , NAB , REB , NJB , and NET . After those would be the NIrV , NIV , and TNIV . The MLB follows and then the ISV , HCS , ESV, NRSV , NASU , and the old NAS ( pre-95) . Just look at that cluster . The territory allows hardly any wiggle-room . The first 8 are more dynamic and then kind of a hybrid-translation starts . The distinct difference between some of the ones leaning toward formal is minimal .

    You can figure out what ones are on a bee-line to home .

    Just my opinion . Feel free to disagree . Debate is allowed .
     
  2. Keith M

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    Interesting analogy...
     
  3. Ed Edwards

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    Home Plate is the dozens of King James Versions (KJVs).
     
  4. rbell

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    Hey, this analogy could get fun...

    so, do KJVO's claim all other versions get "thrown out stealing?"

    I have a message NT...would that be a "bunt?"

    (runs and hides)
     
  5. BruceB

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    probably a foulball.................:laugh:
     
  6. Plain Old Bill

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    Now that was an excellant post! :thumbsup:
     
  7. Anti-Alexandrian

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    Why not hit a homer and stick with the tried and true KJB?
     
  8. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    We do that every day right here:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=31304&page=4


    Today's Baseball reading:

    Genesis 1:1 (KJB1611 Edition):
    In the beginning God created the Heauen, and the Earth.

    :thumbs: In the BIG INNING!! :wavey:
     
  9. rbell

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    Ed as a pun expert, I must declare...

    that was terrible. :applause:
     
  10. Keith M

    Keith M
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    I guess there were just three batters in the BIG INNING - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - all present and all active at creation. There were no more battters needed... :thumbsup: :type: :smilewinkgrin:
     
  11. Keith M

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    Because then we'd never even get to first base!
     
  12. EdSutton

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    Ya' might also consider that Eve stole first, Adam stole second, and God threw 'em both out. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

    Ed
     
  13. gb93433

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    You mean the one Paul used?
     
  14. Rippon

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    Getting back to my OP , do many of you agree that the line from 2nd base to 3rd is crowded ? And if it is crowded , that the differences between those versions are less ? ( I mean after the first 8 translations which are more overtly dynamic . ) . Those 8 are about the first 40 feet . The others on the path to third plate are on the remaining 50 feet with some tight congestion .
     
  15. Rippon

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    Continuing on my theme I thought I would quote some passages on the baseline from 2nd to 3rd . I will cite the following in order : REB, NJB,TNIV and ESV .

    Ephesians 2:10

    we are God's handiwork , created in Christ Jesus for the life of good deeds which God designed for us .

    We are God's work of art , created in Christ Jesus for the good works which god has already designated to make up our way of life .

    For we are God's handiwork , created in Christ Jesus to do good works , which God prepared in adavance for us to do .

    For we are his workmanship , created in Christ Jesus for good works , which God prepared beforehand , that we should walk in them .

    Romans 3:5

    Another question : if our our injustice serves to confirm God's justice , what are we to say ? Is it unjust of God ( I speak of him in human terms ) to bring retribution upon us ?

    But if our injustice serves to bring God's saving justice into view , can we say that God is unjust when -- to use human terms -- he brings his retribution down on us ?

    But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly , what shall we say ? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us ? ( I am using a human argument . )

    But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God , what shall we say ? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us ? ( I speak in a human way . )

    John 6:27

    You should work , not for this perishable food , but for the food that lasts , the food of eternal life . This food the Son of man will give you , for on him God the Father has set the seal of authority .

    Do not work for food that goes bad , but work for food that endures for eternal life , which the Son of man will give you , for on him the Father , God himself , has set his seal .

    Do not work for food that spoils , but for food that endures to eternal life , which the Son of man will give you . On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval .

    Do not labor for the food that perishes , but for the food that endures to eternal life , which the Son of Man will give to you . For on him God the Father has set his seal .

    2 Corinthians 4:16

    No wonder we do not lose heart ! Though our outward humanity is in decay , yet day by day we are inwardly renewed .

    This is why we do not waver ; indeed , though this outer human nature of ours may be falling into decay , at the same time our inner human nature is renewed day by day .

    Therefore we do not lose heart . Though outwardly we are wasting away , yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day .

    So we do not lose heart . Though our outer nature is wasting away , our inner nature is being renewed day by day .
     
  16. Rippon

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    And how about some OT passages ? I am glad you asked . Will this help ?

    Isaiah 65:1

    I was ready to respond , but no one asked , ready to be found , but no one sought me .

    I have let myself be appraoached by those who did not consult me , I have let myself be found by those who did not seek me .

    I have revealed myself to those who did not ask for me ; I was found by those who did not seek me .

    I was ready to be sought by those who did not ask for me ; I was ready to be found by those who did not seek me .

    Psalm 23:6

    Goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life , and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord throughout the years to come .

    Kindness and faithful love pursue me every day of my life . I make my home in the house of Yahweh for all time to come .

    Surely your goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life , and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever .

    Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life , and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever .

    Ecc. 3:11

    He has made everything to suit its time ; moreover he has given mankind a sense of past and future , but no comprehension of God's work from beginning to end .

    All that he does is apt for its time ; but although he has given us an awareness of the passage of time , we can grasp neither the beginning nor the end of what God does .

    He has made everything beautiful in its time . He has also set eternity in the human heart ; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end .

    He has made everything beautiful in its time . Also , he has put eternity into man's heart , yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end .
     
  17. franklinmonroe

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    I think the baseball diamond analogy can be fun.

    However, it does set up the translations from most paraphrasistic to most literal, as if highest formal equivalency is always the goal (closest to home plate). While for most indepenent study, literal is clearly better we should not fail to recognize that other translation methods may serve some other specialized purpose. For example, people with somewhat limited vocabulary (English-as-Second-Language, deaf persons, children, etc), outloud reading, or simply for more casual personal reading.

    Keep in mind that the baseball diamond also only measures the translations in one dimension (that of method). Translations are fully three-dimensional... the other dimensions being: the underlying text used (which Greek, etc), and the literary form (vocabulary, translator bias, etc).

    What appears to be a tight grouping of translations between 2nd and 3rd base could be easily dispersed by considering the other dimensions. Dynamic equivalency has yeilded many translations in recent years and the other two dimensions can be useful in separating them from one another.

    Therefore, this baseball diamond is limited and should not be considered a definitive overall ranking system for these translations. Alas, analogies are rarely perfect. If I could ever hope one to fit translations it would be a baseball analogy.
     
  18. Rippon

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    I did not mean to imply ( by using the baseball anology ) that the most literal versions are the best . An interlinear is not a real translation anyway .

    I have said many times on these threads that there is value along the continuum of translational styles . I actually prefer a functional equivalence model overall . I do not go for the extremes at either end though .

    My analogy is one-dimensional . I would appreciate a 3-D illustration however ( if you can come up with one ) .
     
    #18 Rippon, Aug 16, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 16, 2006
  19. Rippon

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    Col. 1:15

    REB __ He is the image of the invisible God ; his is the primacy over all creation .

    NJB __ He is the image of the unseen God , the first-born of all creation .

    TNIV__ The Son is the image of the invisible God , the firstborn over all creation .

    ESV__ He is the image of the invisible God , the firstborn of all creation .

    Col. 2:23

    Such conduct may have an air of wisdom , with its forced piety , its self-mortification , and its severity to the body ; but it is of no use at all in combatting sensuality .

    In these rules you can indeed find out what seems to be good sense -- the cultivation of the will , and a humility which takes no account of the body ; but in fact they have no value against self-indulgence .

    Such regualtions indeed have an appearance of wisdom , with their self-imposed worship , their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body , but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgences .

    They have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body , but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh .

    Col.4:4

    Pray that I may make the secret plain , as it is my duty to do .

    pray that I may proclaim it as clearly as I ought .

    Pray that I may proclaim it clearly , as I should .

    that I may make it clear , which is how I ought to speak .

    Col. 4:13 ( just a snippet )

    I can vouch for him

    I can testify for him

    I vouch for him

    For I bear him witness
     
  20. franklinmonroe

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    I find I often would like to have a hybrid translation.

    For example in Col. 1:5, I like the first part of the TNIV, the middle of the NJB, and final phrase in the REB. If the Greek would allow, I would render it thus (I would cap the h in "his")--

    The Son is the image of the unseen God, His is the primacy over all creation.

    The TNIV's "The Son" is more descriptive than simply the pronoun "He" of the others; from internal evidence of scriptures it seems that God may not necessarily be "invisible" as much as He is just "unseen" (unseeable?); and the term "firstborn", and the minor variation of "first-born", give the impression that the Son had a beginning (a birth), and since I believe He is eternal (without beginning or end) I prefer the REBs "primacy"... and "over" is preferred to "all" since it shows position.

    In this case I don't care for the ESV at all!
     
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