A Basic Question to all Calvinists

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by icthus, Jun 3, 2005.

  1. icthus

    icthus
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    I, as you say, that God has predestined (that is, fixed beforehand) those whom He has elected to eternal life, then what becomes of human responsibility?
     
  2. icthus

    icthus
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    It should read: "If, as you say..."
     
  3. whetstone

    whetstone
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    From the word of God I gather that damnation is all of man, from top to bottom, and
    salvation is all of grace, from first to last. He that perishes chooses to perish; but he
    that is saved is saved because God has chosen to save him. Though some cannot make these statements agree, they are nevertheless equally true—“Thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thy help found.” 2045.538


    compliments of www.spurgeon.us
     
  4. whatever

    whatever
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    God has predestined that every person will be responsible for his own destiny. Everybody gets what he chooses.

    God has also predestined what each person's destiny will be. Everybody gets what God has predestined.
     
  5. BobRyan

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    If Salvation is "all of God" -- then damnation CAN NOT be "ALL of man" without God offering "really offering" salvation TO ALL without partiality!

    Obviously.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. icthus

    icthus
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    Lets clarify this. If there are those who are predestined to eternal life, and God either passes over the rest, or, as some hold, also predestines them to damnation, then we can only conclude that there is no human responsibility invloved. This also goes with God causing all things that come to pass. There is no responsibility that the unsaved man be made to bear. This seems a great injustice.
     
  7. icthus

    icthus
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    One more thing. Does not "no free will" = "no responsibility"?
     
  8. BobRyan

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    The scenario you describe negates the "damnation is ALL of man" assertion since your scenario shows a God who IS partial instead of a God who is NOT partial (as Romans 2 claims He is not partial).

    The only way for damnation to be ALL of man with salvation being ALL of God is to have a "real" Romans 2 where God is "really" not partial in the way He provides salvation to ALL.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Correct.

    "Robots is Robots"

    "Rocks is Rocks"
     
  10. icthus

    icthus
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    How can you say, "He that perishes chooses to perish", when Calvinism denies human "free will"? To be able to choose, requires that one has a free will to do so.
     
  11. whetstone

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    Does Arminianism REALLY embrace freewill- or does it merely appear to do so? Can anyone that accepts the Bible (on either side) claim that he can do what he wants regardless of what God has to say? Can a man kill the president if God has decreed not to allow it? If not, then this man is not truly 'free' to do what he wills. He is limited. Before you can understand the Calvinist position- you must understand the contrary position. There is no such thing as 100% free will to one that believes in a God that orders events.

    As for the human responsibility/predestination issue, here are two verses on each side that present the two sides of the coin:

    HUMAN RESPONSIBILITY
    Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death...

    Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    PREDESTINATION
    1Cr 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ [from another]? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive [it], why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received [it]?

    Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
     
  12. whatever

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    Yes, it does not.
     
  13. icthus

    icthus
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    Whetstone, you say:

    "Does Arminianism REALLY embrace freewill- or does it merely appear to do so? Can anyone that accepts the Bible (on either side) claim that he can do what he wants regardless of what God has to say? Can a man kill the president if God has decreed not to allow it? If not, then this man is not truly 'free' to do what he wills. He is limited. Before you can understand the Calvinist position- you must understand the contrary position. There is no such thing as 100% free will to one that believes in a God that orders events."

    You are assuming that God takes a direct interest in all the activities that are going on in the world. I note that you use "decreed", and "allowsed" in the same sentence. Sure, if God does say that x has to live for whatever reason, then no, this person will not die. But, is this not to do with God's foreknowledge? Where in Scripture do you read that God ordains ALL things?
     
  14. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Why haven't you believed us the many other times we have answered this question? Why waste the bandwidth asking something that has been asked and answered time after time after time? If you didn't believe it then, will you really believe it now?
     
  15. russell55

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    It exists right alongside predestination. The two things are compatible because scripture accepts them as compatible.

    So says Icthus. Scripture accepts the two as compatible. 2 Thessalonians 2:12-13:

    ...all of them who have not believed the truth but have delighted in evil will be condemned.

    But we ought to give thanks for you always, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.


    So says Icthus. Scripture accepts the two as compatible. Isaiah 10: 6,12

    Against a godless nation I send him (the king of Assyria),
    and against the people of my wrath I command him, to take spoil and seize plunder, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

    When the Lord has finished all his work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, he  will punish the speech of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the boastful look in his eyes.


    Acts 4:27, 28; 3:13-15, 17-19::

    ....for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

    Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him.  But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you,  and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses.

    And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers.  But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer, he thus fulfilled.  Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out....


    So says Icthus. Scripture says:

    Romans 9: 19, 14-18

    You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”  But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?

    Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”  So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.  For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”  So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.


    No, he's not assuming it. He learned it from scripture:

    Matthew 10: 29,30:

    Aren’t two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will. Even all the hairs on your head are numbered.

    Ephesians 1:11

    ...[God] accomplishes ALL things according to the counsel of his will...
     
  16. whetstone

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    Yes i am. so was Christ.

    Mat 10:29-31 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

    Psa 8:3,4 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

    Isa 26:12 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.

    Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

    1Cr 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
     
  17. Wes Outwest

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    God could have simply not been gracious toward man, and all mankind would have perished because of sin. However, God started behaving graciously toward man with Adam, and save for one time, He has been gracious toward mankind ever since. Adam did not die in his sin, or because of his sin because God was already being gracious to man with Adam and indeed it is recorded that Adam lived to 930 years. And that is because God began his grace toward man with Adam, the very first man.

    God established his Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world, before there was a world.

    Sin entered into the world through Adam, and God declared that sin brings death! It is not until sin was atoned by the Lamb of God from before the foundation of the world, His only begotten son, that all men who died from Adam forward could have everlasting life. But what about those who died before Jesus atoned for sin? They too, all who had faith, received everlasting life, and Jesus preached to the dead and all who believed and received him, were also redeemed from death through their faith in Jesus.

    Even so, man must die the natural death, and continue to do so 2000 years after the atonement for sin..." it is appointed unto man once to die then the judgment".

    Jesus said that those who believe in Him are not judged, but pass from death unto life. However, those who believe not are judged already by their own unbelief.

    The point is this, God behaves in Grace toward All mankind, there is no one who is not "receiving" God's grace, though the majority of men do not know it. Is it grace that saves? No! but without grace no man can be saved. God gives no man more grace than any other. Like God's grace, his salvation is for all mankind, not just some nebulous elect. Anyone who believes on even the name of Jesus, is saved, according to scripture.
    Yes, Yes, Yes, whoever believes in Jesus does get born from above. Oh yes, I presume you know the meaning of "accept", but just in case,
    To those who accept, receive, respond, agree with, undertake to be in accordance with God, they become the children of God because they, through believing in God are born from above, because that is where their faith is.
     
  18. icthus

    icthus
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    Larry, its a free world with people who have free wills. You are not forced to take part in this or any discussion, so there is no point in having a moan. :D
     
  19. icthus

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    Whetstone, you still have not given a single Scripture that shows that God has ordained "all things". By this phrase I stress "sin", which is because of the fall of man. It is supposed by Calvinism, that the fall of man was part of God's "plan", and that He also "preordained" it from eternity past. Yet I find no such Scripture in the Bible. Further, there is no getting away with the fact, that if as you would say, God has perordained all things that come to pass, including our sinful actions, then, how is it posible that we are held responsible for our actions, since we are predisposed to commit them? Here is the great error of Calvinism. It charges God with, not only "allowing" sin, but actually "causing" it. And removes from man any responsibility for his actions. You may not agree with this. But it is evident that this is the only possible course to take, based on Calvinistic dogma. It is for this very reason that we rightly accuse Calvinism of making God that author of sin.
     
  20. icthus

    icthus
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    Russell, you quote from 2 Thes. 2:13, where the reading is disputed in the Greek manuscripts. Many Mss. have here, "God chose you as first-fruits (first converts)...". So, it is not safe to build a doctrine on an uncertain reading.

    Given all of your examples, you have yet to show where God would have caused all things, including our sinful actions. If, as you say, God is the "cause" of our sinful actions, then we cannot be responsible for them? For God to cause us to sin, can only mean that He comples us to sin. I cannot see how you can take it in any other way.
     

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